Anyone else feel socially alienated


#21

I can relate to alot of the thoughts expressed on this forum about ENTJ's being prone to social alienation. In fact, it appears that ENTJ's are emotionally alienated more than anything else. Some methods that have helped me to cope with strong "F" types is to just connect with them in task-related ways at work and during University by assisting them or asking for some help and thanking them in return. In general, it builds solid relations throughout time and that person will not be offended by an assertive manner.

ENTJ's express gratitude and sincerity in other ways such as through hardwork, assisting others and providing objective answers. Just learn to utilise these traits in any situation possible.


#22

The pros and cons of being an ENTJ. The good thing is that because we are so goddamn objectionable, we are able to critique ourselves extremely accurately. If used correctly, we can use this ability to grow as people.


#23

yea i do think too much. Most of my friends at school are teachers.. :laughing:


#24

I don't feel socially alienated. I might if I regularly sought social interaction, though. As it is, I generally prefer being alone so that I can focus on whatever I've been wanting to think about or get done, so I wouldn't care much (and probably wouldn't know) if people wanted to avoid me.
That said, I am aware that I am psychologically quite different from most, and that could be a problem in the future. Good manners help, but sometimes other people's notions about how one should behave and feel about socialization are too different to allow for smooth interaction.


#25

Hello everyone :smiley: Wow, socially alienated... I think they have to add that as a trait of this type me thinks! As a child my mother told me that I only ever would have 1 friend at a time. I was considered bossy and could never understand why I just never quite 'fit in'. I wanted to and tried very hard. And only ever wanted to help others (aka inform/teach them). As I grew into my older teens and twentys people must have started to see me as competent or intelligent and would turn to me with their problems. Still it would not win me friends though. It was not until a close few pointed out to me that people did not want to hear the truth, they just wanted someone to listen to their problems. I couldn't understand what the point of that was. Why would someone bring their problems to me if they didn't want a solution to them??!! Taking the MBTI in 2003 at the age of 30 explained a BOAT LOAD of things for me seeing as I am a female ENTJ!!

New perspectives in hand, I have learned that others have emotions that I must learn how to navigate if I want to learn how to influence them and win them over and maybe even gain a new friend or two in the process.


#26

I think that ENTJs struggle socially, at least initially while they're young.

We're a bunch of contradictions. We are part of the NTs - the most dorky and socially retarded people on the planet. However, we are extraverted and judgers. These traits motivate us to seek out social success, be more ambitious, and attract a lot of attention to ourselves. The problem is that we come badly equipped for handling social situations - we lack an awareness of feelings and the ability to fluently express them. The N function messes with your head and makes it hard to be in-the-moment while spending time with people.

ENTJs can be very popular and successful in the social scene but we have to learn a lot of stuff in order to get there. That's why a lot of us spend our younger years making mistakes and looking like idiots - it's the only way to learn.


#27

My entire life I've felt socially alienated, but its never really bothered me - I'm INTJ so I can go for months without human contact :wink:

I actually know a non-negligible amount of fellow INTJs, and the intjforum.com is rather active. But I can't relate to most other INTJs as well. I think INTXs with introverted intuition, seem to take on a life of their own, with very individual/unique intuitive methods.

I know almost no ENTJs, I'm not sure why they're hard to find/spot. Maybe blending in with the crowd.

I like talking to ENTJs way more than INTJs, I like their ability to form goals/todo lists, and practical outlook on life.


#28

Hello,

Yes...call one of your wild buddies....get a 12 pack, weed, and a PS3. This always helps.


#29

x


#30

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#31

hello everyone! i must say, it is so nice to find a community of ENTJ's!

i'd spent most of my earlier years socially accepted by my peers, in high school i took part in "leadership" classes and activities, i had a great time. i generally stick to "the golden rule"-- treating others as i would like to be treated. i used my social rank and powerful "popular" (or whatever that means) social group to protect those who were bullied, and was a mother-type leader to anyone who ever needed help.

no boys ever wanted to date me (i am definitely a late bloomer in that regard) but i didn't care so much to be popular among the men, more so one man in particular... for the most part it was unrequited love, of course.

in my first year of university my popularity continued, until things started to matter. suddenly, the happy-go-lucky veil of childhood was lifted and competition was in full force. no longer were my accomplishments overlooked because i was someone considered "too sweet" to hate. in addition, i began to grow into myself. suddenly, the mysterious and attractive man sitting in my political science class, the one who would have never looked at me twice a year earlier, was asking me for coffee.

i was actually so shocked that my first assumption was that it was a practical joke! i didn't even meet up with him in fear that someone was playing a trick on me!

over the years i've accepted my fate-- at one point i felt that being an ENTJ was a curse, i have been trying to escape it! it has caused me an immeasurable amount of alienation. my friendships are hard, i find my friends suffer tragically over self-inflicted pain (aka... if the first married man you were involved with did not leave his wife, nor did the second, what would make you think that the third time would be any different?). my friends are all accomplished, doctors, novelists, powerful business women. usually a decade-or-two older than me.

quite recently i ran into an ENTP in a cafe, a woman who has since become a friend, and my life has been able to open up again. i just find people to be so frivolous, like sheep running through an obstacle course, or rats in a rat race. often i try to step off-course, analyze the destination of the main population, walk briskly to the end and meet everyone there.

the loneliness comes with the wait. in waiting for the destination to harmoniously reach the same conclusions i doubt myself.

i've proven to myself that i can determine most societal trends with an 80-90 percent accuracy, as a perfectionist, my success ratio of 80:10/90:10 leaves a 10-20% gap that shakes my confidence and makes me judge my own accuracy.

i find a lot of my loneliness comes from a lack of confidence. we look around at the world and see so many people making simple mistakes and are often too humble to wonder if we are any different. If the MB system is as accurate as it seems, and there are so few ENTJ's world-wide, then there needs to be a way to harness our skills and deepen our determination.

my personal challenge is believing in myself. as a canadian, we have a condition many call "canadian tall poppy syndrome". as soon as one poppy grows taller than the rest it is levelled to be the same height as the field. i have fallen victim to the poppy knife, and have persisted. at age 18 i was a published journalist, at 19 i was guest-lecturing in university, at 20 i'd established a small media-relations consulting firm, and at 22 i was a political campaign strategist for elections from national to civic.

in all situations a "where did she come from, and why did she take the job i have worked hard to get for three years" attitude was clear. i tell myself that i work smart, not hard, and that if others have an issue, it should not be mine. i am having a difficult time, however, maintaining that attitude. i am extraordinarily friendly, outwardly happy to help, enthusiastic and not openly-competitive.

i just feel completely socially alienated in a beaten-down sense. as if society/my peers are condemning me for possessing a smart-work attitude, what can i do?

i know this was slightly long-winded, and i certainly do not expect anyone to read such a long post, but it feels good to let it all out. these feelings have been caged-up for the better part of 23 years and i just don't know what to do or where to go anymore!

also, i really don't mean to brag about my accomplishments, but i really wanted to convey the situation bluntly and seriously. my apologies to anyone who may feel that i am being boastful or arrogant. my tone is very humble, and a little bit broken-hearted.

i wish you all the luck in the world, and hope we can all find happiness down whichever paths we choose!

-the vancouverite


#32

Vancouver, I read your post (completely). I'll bet it felt good to get all of that out to people like you. I think you will find that a lot of us here tend to vent in our posts too.

I think I have an idea of where you are coming from; I often find myself choosing between greatness and happiness, there is almost never a middle-ground between the two. Extroverts need to feel accepted to be fulfilled, and the world is very combative toward great people. You feel exactly how you should in your situation. You will feel a lot less alienated the more you read and interact here.

My advice is this: take some time to soul search (climb a mountain or do a 2 week volunteer tour in South America), and find out what you really want from life (pinpoint it, and get it). Spend more time with people who understand you.


#33

As to back up my earlier generalization that other types envy us most of all types... (that is to say that they would rather be an [size=150]ENTJ[/size] if they had a choice):

socionics.com/advan/comments ... 10665.poll

You will see that behind "I wouldn't change my type," (which I don't count as a real answer to this question) ENTJ is the most often picked choice to the question, "If you could change your Type, which would you choose?" There are nearly 4000 votes; as you can see from the comments, there are a variety of types participating in the poll.

Just a piece of evidence...

-T


#34

It's never been so easy to empathize with people!

Even though I'm an extravert, I feel nervous in most new social situations. My mind goes on: is this going to be another event with boring, uncultured people? Then, I remind myself that I should just have fun and listen to people and find something to learn from them.

A friend of mine told me a few years ago that I had a tendency to take over conversations and also to latch onto some individuals. Once I became aware of that I started policing myself. I still take over conversations a times :wink:, but I got a lot better at going around the room and meeting different people.

A few years ago I got an article at a training program: Tell me More by Brenda Ueland. It helped me understand how marvellous listening can be!


#35

Hey Vancouverite! I'm here downtown. If you would like to catch up with another ENTJ it'll be a pleasure! It's so hard to find friends in this city of laid back people...


#36

I think most NTs have some level of problem dealing with non-NTs. I rather think that if we were the majority it would be the SFs who would be having horrible trouble dealing with people - but we’re not.

I think social skills - and dealing with people you don’t have much in common with, requires experience. You just have to be in enough social situations that you start figuring people out. Reading up on relationship books of psychology books or whatever, can give you a starting point for understanding things assuming its not happening naturally.


#37

Hi Vancouverite,

What you said really resonated. It really sounds a bit like you are burnt out and need a mini-retirement. A mini-retirement is when you take off to another country for 3 months to re-discover your next stage in life, instead of the thinking in the way of retiring at the end of your life.

I think after you reach one milestone that took a lot of “smart-work” effort, it’s necessary to refocus that energy into something else.


#38

sigh. it will get better because you are aware.


#39

This thread makes for an interesting read. There are many truths expressed about the “darker” side of being strong, competent, achieving, and a perfectionnist.

I have pondered about the topic many times, trying to find out the ideal strategy to counteract the negative consequences of excelling. Following success, I have suffered from the practical consequences of envy, fear, and the resulting emotional or social alienation. I tried several strategies, from dumbing myself down, showing weakness, making mistakes, to flauting my achievements and being prideful. None of them seemed entirely satisfying, because I was overdoing one or the other, and I was left wondering if I could ever continue to achieve while keeping the peace of mind I used to have before.

I asked myself many questions, wondering what I could correct about myself. I went through a very dark period where, although I did not doubt of my competence, I doubted of the ability of people to recognize my competence. Indeed, I was blocked everywhere I was going, no matter how well I presented my case. Nobody wanted to tell me what the problem was, and the reason being that there was nothing to correct about myself. The problem was that I could not find anymore somebody to “look up to” in order to progress further.

To get out of this, the most important concept I had to be conscious of is the one of “paradox”. The paradox of being the most popular, yet emotionally alienated. Of being central to the group, yet lonely. Of being the most respected, yet the one receiving the most criticism. Of not being able to lead when you say you are a leader, and being chosen as a leader when you say you don’t want to lead. Of being in charge of people, yet being highly dependent on the information you receive from them. Of being asked to show empathy, but only respected if you’re tough. It is the endless play between the leader and the group, the difference between thought and feelings. It is the power exchange that happens between you, as an ENTJ, and the people you are guiding.

I applied this concept and theory. I started to speak less, even if people complained I didn’t speak enough. I flaunted my strengths, even if people said I shouldn’t. I said I didn’t want to lead anymore, and people turned to me to lead. I made mistakes and talked about my vulnerabilities, and if people said I wasn’t that strong I simply said that I still have many flaws to overcome. The results were that I felt as good as before, people felt closer to me, and everyone of my words had far more reach.

Move against people mentally, but go along with them emotionally. Be openly objective about yourself: admit your real weaknesses, and flaunt your real strengths with pride.


#40

I feel a bit enlightened from the advice that I’ve heard from this thread, and I appreciate everybody posting.

ComplexMango mentioned that working on empathy and listening helped you immensely. How did you improve these skills?

Also Jen mentioned that INTJ’s may overthink and be held back socially. Would anybody have any ideas on a fix for this?