Are ENTJs underappreciated?


#1

Immediate examples that come to mind:
Margaret Thatcher
Douglas McArthur
Bill Gates

My point is that it is inaccurate to describe modern American buisiness history without mentioning the enormous contribution of Bill Gates, or modern British history without mentioning the Thatcher revolution as the prime mover, or the Eastern theater of WW II/ Post-war Japan/ the liberation of the Phillipines without mentioned Douglas McArthur as its principal architect.

However, you will rarely encounter these three described in those ways by the man on the street, or the average newsreader/ TV talking head.

I think all three of these famous ENTJs had generation-changing accomplishments, but did not actively seek any recognition or adulation for their achievements, and have been actively targeted by the media during their careers.

In other words, sometimes I wonder if the world sees ENTJs as 'a--holes who are magically right' - i.e. like an immature view of a 'dad' figure. All 3 above have literally been scorned in the UK/ US media, even during their prime, and are regarded as 'necessary evils'. Bill Gates is one of my favorite examples: "Bill Gates is an evil monopolistic dictator! We are all forced to use Microsoft because it is prohibitively expensive and inefficient to use any other firms products in a mass business setting! What a jerk for providing such comprehensive interoperability!" Or Thatcher, vilified by the media all through her incredible and unprecedented term in office.

Hypotheses

Is there something in the ENTJ approach or psyche that does not serve to 'endear'?

Are folks that 'endear' inevitably artisans (i.e. SPs)? or Fs?

Obviously I may be referring to the reaction of the sheeple, and as an ENTJ myself, I don't really seek affirmation in any way. But is that 'why they hate us' :wink:? Because we don't seek their approval/ blessings/ adulation, because of which they have no power over us? Or is that the rational's (i.e. NT's) curse in general?

Or maybe is it the 'J' that causes a problem? I think it is easier for an INTP to be 'loved' than an ENTJ. e.g. Einstein. (sidenote: that would make INTPs 'weirdos who are magically right' :smiley:)

Is it the Fi, and the Te?

Can anyone name a single famous 'beloved' ENTJ?


#2

Thatcher's a terrible example to use. For one, she adored the spotlight and regularly sought recognition and adulation for her achievements, and secondly for every positive thing she did for the country (the right to buy for example) she did twice as many things that were thoroughly detrimental (e.g. the poll tax fiasco, completely failing to do anything about the mass unemployment brought about when she sold off and closed down the coal mining industry, her support of economic policies that helped lay the groundwork for our current economic crisis, etc.), so it's no wonder she was reviled (plus the British media pretty much always give whoever's in power a grand old kicking no matter how well they're doing), she was on the verge of losing the 1983 election until the Falklands war victory bumped her approval rating through the roof.

As for why ENTJs tend not to receive much love, I think it's at least partly due to the typical ENTJ interaction style. It can be pretty full-on and in your face, especially if they haven't developed their F side, and IIRC the most common enneagram types for ENTJs are 8 and 1, so average to unhealthy ENTJs are either going around challenging people left right and centre for no particular reason other than to do so, or they're painting the world in black and white with a "Me vs. You" mentality.

Not exactly recipes for endearment.


#3

Briefly on Thatcher: I am no expert on British politics, but it seems to me that Thatcher's motivation was to increase economic freedom--the #1 factor in a healthy economy. That is quite admirable for a head of government; most instinctively seek to crush economic freedom so they can centralize power (resulting in deadweight social loss on an insane scale). She did achieve some success in this endeavor, allowing the UK economy to soar above most of Europe for many years.

I do think that ENTJs are well appreciated by NTs in general, but underappreciated (like NTs in general) by many Non-NTs (90% of the population?). The Te is the face ENTJs show to the world. This is so refreshing to other NTs who love to cut the BS and get down to reason. I think the "a-hole with mystical powers" is how some S and especially SF types tend to interpret the N-based Te.

*The "mystical" part comes from a lack of understanding of how the N operates.
*The "powers" part comes from the strong competence possessed by well developed ENTJs.
*The "a-hole" part comes from the "J" at times, but more often I suspect is due to the hostility to reason itself exhibited by many people.

Very often the ENTJ is going out into the world with the Te, telling people truth they just don't want to hear! The reaction ends up: "Wow, he was so right-but I really don't like him!" And the ENTJ is thinking, "Ugh! I am just telling you how to achieve YOUR OWN GOAL! Why can't you just get off your ass and do it right???"

As for the "endear" issue, I think that ENTJs are more admired for most types, but the "mystical" aspect can prevent that admiration from turning into affection. Other types may be stronger with emotional connection but find it harder to earn admiration (http://www.keirsey.com/handler.aspx?s=keirsey&f=fourtemps&tab=2&c=protector). Also, people are drawn to ESTPs; most of the time it is genuine, but sometimes it is just because ESTPs make the best con artists (Se, followed by Ti, followed by Fe). I doubt the ENTJs would be willing to trade with anybody for most purposes.

I do think INTPs are sometimes seen as "weirdos with mystical powers." "Mystical powers," for roughly the same reasons as ENTJs. The "wierdo" (rather than "a-hole"), comes in because INTPs are Ti, and Ne is the face they show the world. One reason people think, "wierdo" is because they see a person who is normally an introspective observer come up with an answer they could not picture the INTP having experience with. More basic might be that introspective observers in general come off as wierd. INTPs are less likely to get the a-hole tag because of:

*The informative(NTP)/directive(NTJ) distinction.
*While ENTJs are trying to mobilize the subject, INTPs get joy from simply discovering the right answer. If the other person implements the solution, that is great!!! But, if the person chooses not to, admiration for that person may decrease but the emotional reaction is usually: "meh."
*The P vs. J distinction. The INTP is trying to understand the issue, whereas the ENTJ's opinion of the other person may show through.

So the consumer thinks, "This INTP has the answer to my question--but I don't know how he does," or "This ENTJ has the answer to my question--and he will kick me in the pants if I can't even be bothered to accept the gift!"


#4

I agree completely. Magnificent insight.


#5

That's a very fair point, as much damage as she caused there were definitely things she did that were of great benefit to the nation. For example, even though it directly affected where I live very negatively in both the short and long term, Thatcher privatising the coal industry was an absolute must IMO. It had become bloated, inefficient and its union had become too powerful and self-serving (my problem with it is just that she didn't make even the slightest bit of effort to encourage new industries to move in to the void that was left when the mines closed, dooming entire generations to a vicious cycle of unemployment and dependence on the state). Also her economic policies allowed many people to lift themselves out of dependence on the state and become self-sufficient.

It's worth noting however that some of the seeds of our current economic troubles can be found in those same economic policies, and even at the time those policies were notorious for creating cycles of boom and bust, so it wasn't all good.


#6

...


#7

In my experience being an ENTJ, there's always half of the people who think you're awesome and half of the people who hate your guts because you always say the obvious truth that everyone is so silent about.


#8

This probably has an impact. I've created more than one lifelong enemy with an offhand insight that apparently I wasn't supposed to point out. (Of course, I never find out until well after the fact as the offended party is inevitably too much of a weiner to say anything to my face.)

At my hospital, they've even managed to set up a system through which my... underappreciatedness... is well-documented. The "WOW Cards". Basically, they're these cheesy little index cards that employees use to write warm fuzzlets about one another for... whatever.

I've received one in over two years. Now, one could argue, 'Maybe you're just a slack ass', and there's nobody here to verify my own word, but as far as I can tell - I'm above and beyond far more often than not. I do a good quantity of work that is not technically mine, helping out when coworkers get overwhelmed.

It went to even another level when I was hitting my shift supervisor up for a lead therapist position. His comment included my need to 'show initiative' with regard to helping out... I argued, in my opinion fairly, that there was no possible way for me to show MORE initiative in that particular area, as I never -stop- until my own and everyone else's work is done. Hell, I'll even visit departments I'm not -working- to make sure everything's taken care of.

One thing I've noted is that I don't make a big thing of it. Thing 'A' needs to be done... do it, get on with life. Others I've seen tend to make quite a show of doing someone else's assignment.

shrug Or, it could just as easily be that I'm falling victim to the self-serving bias and am actually a horrific lollygagger lacking in self-awareness.


#9

In reply to underappreciated....yes, those reviews and and wow cards, meant to apply peer pressure are not what an individualist ENTJ enjoys. No bending and twisting needed. I motivate myself and I get the job done. So often, I see people who are always marketing themselves. How good they are, their wonderful people, places and things, how they did it etc. I hate listening to them go on.
ENTJ's don't do that. Their concern is for the task..identifying it, rooting out the problem, designing a solution and handing it off to be maintained. In my mind, once something makes my list of to-do, I consider it a shovel-ready project waiting to be completed.


#10

It's pretty ridiculous, in my view. Not remotely well-suited to its purpose, either (That's probably a bigger sin in my own value hierarchy, heh. If it -works-, I don't care as much that it's stupid). Since they give out dinky little rewards for X amount of Wow Cards, it doesn't take many IQ points to figure out that the entire system is going to rapidly degenerate to friends giving one another random Wow Cards for every little reason.

Right. Self-marketing is certainly a weak area... Not because I'm bad at it (To the contrary, given half a mind to do so, I can generally convince almost anyone of almost anything), but because it generally doesn't occur to me. The few times it does, it seems pointless as I like to think merit speaks for itself. (I am, I suppose, a blind idealist that way.)

Heh heh. I could get off on quite a rant-tangent with this bit, but I don't have the time to get sidetracked. Goal orientation, accountability... argh, the kind of things that seem painfully rare to me. (Possibly just because I'm obsessed with them.)


#11

Under appreciated? I'll add it to my TODO list:

You get your hate-mail auto delivered to your paper shredder. And you go back home to your million dollar mansion, where your victoria's secret model girlfriend is waiting to appreciate you :wink:


#12

It is so true. I can think of countless occasions where people hate me for no particular reason. But to the main question: are we under appreciated? No. Look at Napoleon, for example, he led over one million people to their deaths in Russia. He had been told to hold off, yet he had a “hunch” that it would work out. He was stubborn. The ENTJ kind of stubborn. Should that be appreciated? The blood of lives on your hands, should it be something to hold in high appreciation? No. He is but an example of how we are bad influences on society. The only thing you can take away from this, is that they should be appreciated for doing what we all want. When others might hesitate we (ENTJs) have already planned it. I believe that is commendable, it should be recognized, but until we break free from the evil manipulator stereotype that will never happen.


#13

I think Vladimir Putin is a solid ENTJ and he’s like adored in Russia. I’m not saying he doesn’t have some black spots in his history but a huge portion of the Russian population think he’s awesome. And he has done a lot for Russia.

Caesar was probably an ENTJ too and the historian Suetonius wrote that among the Romans, “Caesar ranked among the gods, not only by formal decree, but in the hearts and minds of the people.”

I could find more examples if I tried.

People who make MBTI websites seem to think “oh, he was a good leader, helped the people and cared for them, definitely a feeler” . If you’re a thinker it doesn’t mean you’re an asshole who only cares for himself.

ENTJs are outspoken and sometimes blunt and that’s why some people don’t like us. But there’s a saying that goes: “You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life.” by Winston Churchill, who is also a good candidate for an ENTJ imho.


#14

Underappreciated and probably loathed in general. On average, ENTJs are more productive, goal oriented, educated and highly compensated than other groups. We tend to be the producers in society. This automatically makes us underappreciated by others.


#15

on the topic of Bill Gates, I actually read online ( an article on MBTI typing and IQ relation ) that Bill Gates would have been a very successful emperor if he were born a few centuries before ours. Kind of makes sense as Microsoft really is an empire in its own right.


#16

There may be something to it, sure. I’ve noticed a sort of “good buddy” mentality with others. In a work scenario, they want to fart around and collect a paycheck. They tend get upset, when you put them back on task. You’re making them look bad, and they know it. They just don’t want to take responsibility for their behavior. I think another part is that “I do what I want” mentality that gets little done. I’m more tempted to keep other people in line, and thus, make myself an easy target.

As far as being under appreciated, they’ll thank me later. If they don’t, they can go jump off a cliff.

If the typing is correct, I think Katherine Hepburn would be a fine consideration. Fiery and unsinkable, yet genuinely adored by moviegoers (not to mention very attractive). I’ll leave some room open for mistyping though.


#17

Underappreciated? Probably as often as any other type. Hated? Well, yes. I think it’s the TJ combo. I think most of us inherently lack tact, and if we don’t work at that area, we walk all over people - especially the F folk. Not very endearing. :wink:

I have found that I am much more likely to be appreciated down the road than immediately. Mostly, I just end up with people angry or annoyed with me because I said what they were all thinking, anyway.


#18

I remember reading this post before and being so angry at the illogical back tracking hindsight that I just walked off and never joined the site.

It is not contributions to acknowledge the big fish in the tiny pond. Every business man knows profit is what you have after counting your losses. The post presented only Macro level exchanges showing nothing of the micro transactions that shaped such titans.

What’s 200% profit to 1m if I can take a penny and make it into $100? Money makes money it should be easier to acquire it with such figures. Such examples presented can be hated if they bite the hands that feed and squander potential profits.

I could take 2 tons of iron and make the worlds largest toilet sculpture sell it for roughly the base value worth of the iron after wasting my time. Then again perhaps I could fashion something of more value with said enormous piles of resources that I laid claim to. Perhaps something that won’t turn to a pile of rust.