I probably wouldn’t be able to give you the answer that you want.
The feeler types as I have discovered so far are usually those either come from financially well off families or they limit themselves in areas of life that I have no particular interest in. They usually locate themselves in areas of life that they dont live up to the potential of their position. Therefore they often fail to catch my attention in this regard. However I find it to be extremely annoying to deal with those feelers that come off from financially well off families. They act on intelligence unknown to me and usually catch off guard. And since they are feeler types, they identify catching me off guard as a sign of superiority and choose to dismiss me in one way or another. I find that behavior as extremely shallow and arrogant at worst (other side is lack of curiosity and plain stupidity). I see alot of them when I interact with people. I find no effective way to deal with them other than agreeing with them on every front on the surface while buying myself sufficient amount of time to get things done and then dump them. They suspect it coming, but they cant function as a feeler alone. (some of them do and they are beyond salvaging) I focus on like minded people and try to delegate my job of dealing with feelers to more adept ones.
Pretty much the only way to avoid offending them is to not talk to them seriously. I know this sounds awful, but if you get into a heated conversation with them, you’ll use your logic, and they’ll tend to retreat as their ideas are sacred to them and they don’t tend to understand the difference between you critiquing their logic and you critiquing their character.
^ The above is a blanket statement and generalization, but more often then not it has been dead on for me.
INFJ’s seem like nice people, and usually seem a little sharper than average, but I don’t think they’re worth talking to unless you’re looking for relationship advice or to joke around. If you have controversial thoughts, do not share them with an INFJ.
Most “F” types are sensitive to anything that disagrees with their philosophies and ideas. I feel like I’m in PR mode whenever I take to them, as I have to do damage control with my words before any damage has been done.
This is pretty awful! So you’re saying just keep it to small talk and avoid conversation of any real substance? They don’t want to share their values or encounter anything in conversation that would call their values to mind? This would require me to keep an extremely wide distance between myself and the other person. I couldn’t ever fathom needing relationship advice from someone with a high feeling preference so that leaves joking and talking about the weather. I can’t see how you could actually get to know someone like this with even the slightest depth. I know I’m starting to sound like a moron here. I kinda knew this “rule” but seems it applies with friendships as well distant acquaintances. While I’ve always been impatient with small talk, I am just starting to realize how much of a chore it is when it leads nowhere.
The key here is knowing what they consider to be controversial. I got into a socially awkward moment with one the other day just casually mentioning that I wouldn’t be around on a certain day due to having a doctor’s appointment. This apparently opened up an emotional can of worms for a friend of mine, triggered some bad memories or something along that line, after which he went silent. When I tried to make it better, it only got worse. I was sorry I mentioned it. I thought I was doing him a favor by warning him I would be absent. sigh
I find that relationship advice, when accurate is really nice to have. I neglect my feeling preference, and some feeling types can see relationships in a much more elegant way. Often I can wonder about social implications that a decision could have, and NF types can predict how people will react and how to keep order. I’m not trying to say that they’re shallow or useless, but NT and NF are quite different IMO, and could make a good team, but don’t seem like friend material.
I agree about small-talk being boring, so usually I try to switch the topic to something interesting, in order to not replay an exact conversation that I’ve had before in my life. If I’m completely stuck talking about things that bore me, I can at least see it as a game, judging people’s responses according to what I say and trying to gain rapport just to see that I can. Gaining rapport with feeling types earns bonus points, especially if you don’t mirror everything that they say. I know I must sound very detached and it might sound a little cold to treat conversations as a game, but most people just want to talk to talk, and would rather have you agree with them than to actually contribute an opposing view.
It’s hard for me to think of anything of particular. I used to work with many different people few years ago (when I was curious about things and switched jobs much sooner than I changed my socks) and I used to stumble upon many feelers and all of them had different stories. It’s hard to bring up things from memory since I decided that I have no use for them anymore. It’s really hard for me to keep something on my mind that have no use for me. If you asked the same question to me about 10 years ago, I could come up with at least 3 recent story to tell about. Today, I really focus on things that really matter to me. Not for anybody else.
Perhaps I could tell about my one of the stupid cousins. It’s really shame. I have to deal with so many stupid people to get my point across. Let them feel right so I could get over with it. This stupid cousin’s old brother had a kid. Perhaps 5 years old. And that stupid kid, just like his stupid father…was hitting men in the balls. That stupid little fuck was allowed to do this as if it was something funny. Each time that little stupid fuck was hitting someone in the balls (and stupid kid is strong enough to make you feel great pain) it was a source of joy for them. “Hey look our beloved kid hit someone in the balls again”. I mean…what the fuck? How can someone enjoy this sadistic ritual of ball busting? This kid once tried that on me. Of course I’m not the guy to take such a shit. I instantly slapped the kid hands back. The kid was astounded. This stupid fuck never expected something like that back. Of course that was a very good lesson for a kid. And kid now thought twice before doing something similar back. Of course that action didn’t pass the notice of my stupid cousin. He had the nerve to confront with me on this. “Why do you hit the kids hands? He’s just a kid. You shouldn’t do something like that to the kid. He doesn’t understand”. I was like “You know, I never believed that you grew up enough to be called an adult in the first place, leave alone teaching kids some manners too.” I avoided any conflict with the guy. I decided that he is useless to me. He is of no use to me. And he’s stupid and annoying like hell. He kisses his daddy’s butt to provide for him. And not only. His stupid fuck dad will not only provide for his sorry ass. But he also will provide for his future wife and kid since he’ such a stupid idiot father to tell his 30 years old son to get lost. I mean where will you begin to to fix the problem? If you start with his son…who will fix the dad? And if you fix the dad…who will fix the son? I just said “Screw you all. You are of no use to me. And never will. From now on…you all are on your own. Live your life in whatever way you want…I’m outta here. You will be lucky to see me ever again fuckers”.
That was 3 years ago. And I have never contacted them ever again. Since then, his older brother got an apartment for free. He never worked a sweating day to pay mortgage for it or bust his balls to buy it by working at midnight. Basically these are idiots. I’m not impressed by such people. I can talk hours about these people. 2 years ago he also got married. Had kids. Now he lives with his dad and moms apartment while fucking his wife and making her moan while dad and mom tries to sleep. What the fuck right? These feelers have no self respect. They cannot be held responsible of anything. Cannot be talked sense about something. Basically useless pieces of crap. Just take their houses and securities away and see how they gonna sell their butts to not starve off. But hey…we all have seen that movie before now didn’t we? So who cares?
Another idiot feeler is my mom. Oh boy…I don’t want even get there. I will just stop.
So as you can see, when I see an inconsistent thought in people reasoning I instantly see their feeling preferences. Feelers are not strong on logic and reasoning. They cannot analyze their environment as effectively as me. They have no curiosity or whatsoever to learn more about their surroundings. They rather want to focus on maximizing their daily pleasures which have no apparent purpose. Life of the part as you may say…but a life that has no meaning. Sometimes I see them at corporations. Those are the types who kiss the butt of each other to keep things at peace. And then once they keep things at peace…every now and then boss will call them in their office to rape them in the ass. Hello! Here goes another feeler for you. How does it feel now up in your ass?
They definitely have an access to human beings on different level than I am. They can access to each others collective minds quite in contrary way than I do. They can learn each other insecurities since they appear non threatening to each other and then use than information to advance themselves to positions that they have never deserved to be in the first place. Am I jealous? I do not think so. I do believe there are many people out there who are forced to deal with reality as it is and simply cannot kiss butts like others can do. I can deal with such people. Feeler or not…it doesn’t matter. If the guy gets the jobs done…I’m in. If not…hallelujah motherfucker! Go kiss your butt up and get your butt raped. Whichever comes first. Lots of people are willing to do things to get things done. But very few are willing to go as far as I go. And in that scenario it is exactly why I am are better fit at leadership role than any other wannabes. Because I am able to face with the “price”. Other wants it for free. Nothing is free you idiots. Wake the fuck up. Or don’t. Whatever…sooner or later someone is going to get from what they want and the only thing you can do…is to oblige. Why? Well…because that’s what you do the best. So shut the fuck up. And deal with it.
Sometimes my only frustration is that I cannot find smart enough NTs around me to get some huge campaign moving. If that could happen…then some serious shit could be done.
Thanks wasabi, that was a very good and interesting read. Do you know the types of your cousin and Mom?
Since feelers are in the majority and they assume that everyone has the same social intelligence, they have set their standards as the norm. Social skills are learned and can be developed but the ability to read others is something that will always be a blind spot for me. No matter how hard I try, I miss opportunities. Without knowing the other person’s values, feelers have an uncanny ability to predict the reactions of other feelers. To me it seems as mystical as clairvoyance or mind reading. There is a good deal of pressure to conform. I too have suffered a lot of confusion as a result of all this, especially as a a child, getting the cold shoulder of disapproval from adults. When I first started studying MBTI, I jumped to a conclusion about the feeling preference, thinking that tact was rooted in values of kindness and justice. But today tact to me is merely conflict avoidance,. That in of itself is neither good nor bad, there are all times when avoiding conflict is important. But if you live your life in a such a guarded way, concealing who you really are, lest you offend someone with a different idea, then at some point wouldn’t you cross a line? Isn’t it like presenting an image to the world and even misleading others so they don’t know who you really are? What depth could you have in your relationships without some basic transparency? How could you receive acceptance or love from people if they don’t know something significant about the real you? Hiding your true self hints at a lack of confidence, fear or shyness. I know if I wasn’t being my authentic self, it would certainly hurt my self esteem.
You know whats interesting Jane? The more I experience this life…the more I start to realize that you may not even need those skills to advance. How?
It may seem that understanding person’s values, predicting their reaction…or “mind reading” seem like a way of how human beings interact with each other and what a “normal” social behavior might look…I increasing come to conclusion that this is absolutely not the case here. Many people … or feelers…as you put it in there…might prefer this kind of approach as a method of harmony with other human beings, but that approach is not the only one. There is a second approach to problems that as I think “thinkers” do have. They do not require “mind reading”. They do not need you to be clairvoyant about their personal values. They need nothing other than your respect and competence. However, in order to meet these people, you have to first curb your own sensitivity. I’m sure you meet alot of them in real life, but tend to dismiss them because they do not fit to “normalcy” bias that majority of people have. The thing with the thinkers is that sooner or later they realize that in order to get your stuff done you have to disregard some of the emotions and values that emotions require. This is the challenge a thinkers needs to overcome. Once that is done, then you enter into entirely new world of different possibilities which I think you are perfectly suited to deal with (due to your personality type). And you probably don’t need feeler values to interact with them either. Or miss any of your opportunities. It is entirely possible scenario (and I living in one). Way of the thinker is a difficult one. But also equally rewarding one. It has a potential that no feeler will ever reach in their entire lives. Maybe it is a good thing that we have so many feelers around us? They belong to certain social structure. And you belong to another sort of social structure. The divide between those two might quite be something that keeps the society running. Perhaps we shouldn’t take it as a sign of something wrong. Perhaps things exist in that way for a reason. And I increasing coming to conclusion that there is actually a good reason for all of that. You are just not in your own dish … yet. But you will. Eventually.
It is unlikely that I will seek advise from an INFJ. I might seek sympathy from them though! They see the world through their special INFJ glasses which has a super prescription for their hopes and dreams and how the world works inside their heads. This does not bode well for objective constructive useful thought provoking insight for me. They will tolerate a lot of BS than most people, because they see what they want to see in people and not what it really is, and then they hope and pray that things will go well, because “it is meant to be” according to the blueprint in their head.
I hate when that happens. One says something innocuous and it triggers something emotionally in them, and they make it my fault for upsetting them. I used to get upset and apologise and make it better and explain logically. This is what I would do: turn it around and make them feel like that it is their fault for making me feel bad with their insensitive reaction. “Now you make me feel so bad for upsetting you over something that is obviously just a casual comment. Now I cannot stop thinking about it the whole day!”.
I can live with not talking to INFJs. I can live with not talking to a lot of people. I can look pretty and do small talk. I can do casual small talk, what I am really bad at is the business small talk.
And yes I have experienced something slightly different, they cannot beat me on logic and start insulting me personally. “Just because you read one book on the topic, you think you know.” “Just because you can’t see how it works, you dismiss it.” So they might not be an INFJ if they react this way. But damn it, its just as bad. Got to find suitable companionship because I am getting bored of looking pretty, looking at my nails and doing small chat.
This made me laugh. I understand the sentiment although it was extremely direct and so insensitive. I am very amused by the reponses in the thread What is your IQ?. It seems that most people who responded are at least 120IQ which puts them in the top 10%. Funny thing is I think you will only continue to see people listing their iqs if it is about 120. I know if I were 95iq I wouldn’t be advertising this on a forum.
I also understand the frustration of meeting people who seem bent on scewing up on their own volition. Today someone I know told me that he found a tenant for the room he is letting. He told me that he will not be collecting a deposit, so that he doesn’t have to refund anything and that there is no tenancy agreement! He said he trusted the new tenant because he was a relative of his previous tenant. Basically he is trusting someone he doesn’t know. I asked him, what if the tenant leaves unexpected? What if the tenant breaks something? Is this about feeling preference or just a question of not so savvy? Oh my it rattle my cage. I believe all they wanted from me was validation. But I could not give it. Instead I told tell him this is not to their advantage and how to fix it. Its terrible - I feel compelled to explain how to fix this! The thing is these people are adults and they should be allowed to absolutely screw up, so that they will learn the hard way if they refuse to think things through. It really is none of my business. The problem is being extroverted, I naturally find myself wanting to enjoy the company of people, but I find myself surrounded by many such people.
I think I understand “unknown intelligence”. Is it the ability to connect with other feelers and get them to understand and get them to do what you want them to do? And how to read them? Clairvoyance like how Jayne describes this?
My dad who I think is an ENTP is a master of feeling people out. He instantly knows what people are feeling and know what he should be doing to be completely accepted by them and make them do things he want to do. Now, I don’t know if this a skill or a talent, because my dad’s social position and mine are not the same. Let me explain.
My grandparent who I think is an ESTJ is quite a wealthy person. A retired police officer (how typical ESTJ lol!) and a World War 2 veteran he’s quite experienced in life matters. I have talked to that person quite for a while and I find to be quite similar in the ways we function with each other. The only difference between him and I is that I have great curiosity about everything whereas he does not have such curiosity. He wants to have security at all costs and will go to all lengths to get that security. But will never look for security at the outside of the box which I do alot. Long story short, my grandpa is a wealthy person. He provided alot for his kids. He gave them houses. Cars. Lands. He gave them everything basically. And what his kids do? Nothing. They couldn’t advance themselves further than the security they already been given. None of his kids were able to hold a stable job. None had stable business (hell, it cannot even be called business…just a bunch of clusterfuck basically). And many of them still are dependent on my grandpas financial help even though they are older than 40 years old now. A complete disaster. My dad among these people are the worst. He’s in disastrous position when compared to the rest of my grandpas kids. My dad lost everything that my grandpa gave him. Now taking that into consideration…my dad had business back in 1996 in the same city that I live right now. Of course he screwed it all up…but had a good beginning. With keeping that in mind…my dad had lots of opportunities to deal with people on a level that I cannot do right now due to the temporal circumstances that I am in. Given that, I don’t know whether my dad have that ability with people coming from the skill he learned while he was doing his business…or is it a talent he got somehow. I doubt it to be a talent. It is probably a skill he learned due to his social position. And in that sense, there is probably no such a thing as “unknown intelligence”. It’s probably unknown thing due to my different position. At besides, why should I compare my dad with myself? It it proper to compare my ENTP dad with myself or should I compare my dad with an ENTJ who started with my dad at the same time in business and currently owns half of the cities the most valuable properties? Hmm? Who should I compare my dad’s abilities with? Me? Or other ENTJ? Same with my grandparent. He has zero respect to my dad. Does that make my dad so great? Does that make his ability worthwhile? I doubt it. For that exact reason, I do not think I should be focused on feeler’s intelligence. I do not think it worth that much. I usually refer to them as stupido. And that is where they rightfully belong. I am on a lookout for the people who are thinkers. And I am firm believer that only thinkers are capable of functioning on the level that I need people for. And that is what I am looking for in people. I do not consider every person to be worthwhile. And I do not waste my time on them. I pick right people pretty quickly now. Since I know what am I looking for. Maybe in that manner…I am already superior to many feelers? Because I can create something out of nothing? Perhaps we shouldn’t always look at the advantages that they have. Perhaps we underestimate the abilities that we have? And I’m sure we have more abilities than they do.
On the other hand, being an NT forum, it’s likely that the average here is at least slightly above the norm. N types as well as T types are almost predisposed to be higher in regard to IQ. It’s not a completely fair comparison, but it’s like asking the fitness levels of a bodybuilding forum. I don’t think having a high IQ is too important, but having a low IQ is pretty crippling.
One of the best ways to mesh socially is just to not share bright ideas. I want to say that my social skills doubled when I learned to hide flaws in other’s ideas. A key to feelers is that they remember you by how you make them feel rather than what you do for them. By this logic, you’ll be in better standing with them by letting them crash and burn while giving them encouragement than you ever will be looking out for them.
It’s really horrible and sexist, but with males I can be fairly critical (in a constructive way), but since more females tend to be feelers and take things personally, I find it better to give a patronizing approach where I nod and smile. I find myself automatically treating them like children until they give me a reason not to. Most people really just want to get their validation fix and move on. There are some guys like this as well, but I want say that the majority of the time I can be more “real” with them.
Wow this topic has me so overcome with emotion, I can’t reply to all of you at the moment. I only want to say that my best friend is an ENFJ. He’s a hard working, aggressive and competitive guy who has many interests and skills, and enormous drive and energy. Highly respected by one and all, an ISTP said to him just the other day: “I will never forget you”. How often do you hear an ISTP say anything like that? I’ve always adored my ENFJ friend and he wanted a relationship with me several years ago. I turned him down because I had a health issue and my future was uncertain. I thought that because of my medical issues, I didn’t have enough to bring to the table, and he deserved more. Also he’s younger than I am and I thought the age difference was too much. He met a girl, he asked me what I thought and I encouraged him to pursue her. They had a serious relationship. There was naturally some tension between her and I, since I had been his daily companion. So I had to back off. Ironically she also developed a chronic medical condition and he helped her through one medical ordeal after another. Eventually he and I lost contact for a year. She broke up with him a year ago, tho they still maintain some contact. He’s back in my life and sadly, it’s not anything near the same. In my heart, he’s still my best friend but I know I am not his. At least I get to chat with him every day. So I accept what is, and I’m grateful. It’s great to have him around again.
Yesterday, he gave me advice when I asked him how he encourages someone who is troubled. He said: “The best way to comfort someone is to be a good listener”, “I find it’s best not to give advice”, and “instead give them hope by pointing out possibilities”.
I’m glad to hear that you have met a nice ENFJ. How do you see your friendship with this person moving forward?
I have not been so lucky! I have met a few ENFJs and I am amazed at how good they are making people feel comfortable, how quickly they become friends with someone and how they handle people. They do flawless diplomatic performance that people don’t even know they have been out maneuvered. I just haven’t the patience to deal with people who are adults this way! I know ENFJs get awfully stressed and annoyed when people are not behaving badly or when their logic is flawed (this my new phrase for the not so popular word stupid!), they will complain bitterly behind closed doors.
I am not surprised that N & T types have iqs slightly above the norm. Also it seems that certain types of people are also predisposed to higher IQ like if you are Chinese, Japanese or Korean, you get about a 4-6 point advantage and apparently a slightly bigger head circumference. So basically a little above the norm would be like 110-120? But we are seeing people post their scores at 120+ which puts them in the top 10% which is quite skewed or significant whichever way you want to see it. The sample size is also small and not random, as this information is given voluntarily.
This makes me think of “How to make friends and influence people” by Dale Carnegie. I have this book somewhere. It goes on about not criticising people, not pointing out their mistakes, and the use of positive reenforcement. I best go reread this book again, as today I met someone who told me that it is best to eat dinner earlier so that you do not sleep on a full tummy and you will not get a belly. I was about to say it doesn’t really matter when you eat, its about the full amount of calories you consume during a 24 period. I instead said “Oh I will remember that”. And then she looks shocked and aghast when I said I hadn’t had dinner yet - It was 7.40pm. Hells bells. Some Feelers are only concerned with their feelings only, and its ok to dish it out but not receive. I am prepared to be diplomatic, keep my opinions to myself and if this is expected of me the least they can do is reciprocate.
Dear Brad, I sincerely hope you are married!! You see, about 70% of females are feelers and 30% are thinkers. You said most, I don’t think 70% is most. That would mean about 1 in 3 women you met are thinkers. And coversely, 30% of males are feelers. Chances are you are missing out on possible female frienships from your blanket approach towards females.
I am patronised by males all the time and am no longer upset by this. I find it amusing that I am judged as solely on the basis of my gender and to some extent what I look like. It really sieves the wheat from the shaft. From this I can tell if how good they are judging people and how much they rely on their very shallow assumptions to make judgements. Once I see that I have been patronised without even being given a chance, I no longer am interested in talking to them.
The other thing is that if you are female and not ugly, you will get the maximum advantage by using the soft voice, acting cute or helpless and cleavage to parlaying for whatever resource that you might want. Let me tell you that this works far far better than going head on, using logic or using smarts with men. This works when you want someone to help you with stuff, get extra toppings at the ice cream place, discount at the computer store, extension of deadline in college (I tried this!) etc. This is my dirty little secret! I will concede that this doesn’t work with a small percentage of men. Basically what I am saying is not to be fooled by the appearance of brainlessness in females, they are just playing the recipocal game with patronising men.
You will from time to time, meet a man who doesn’t patronise you off the bat and with whom there is no need to use any feminine whiles, who understands cooperation and mutual understanding. This one would be a keeper for friendship or more.