Female ENTJ & Dating:


#1

I wonder if there are other female ENTJ that have difficulty dating as I do...

I find most men to be weak, spineless or seriously lacking a pair. Especially in this metro-sexual/dual-income society we live in today. I expect a man to want to produce, create or be the master of something at least as much as I do as a minimum. I mean doesn't everyone want to leave something behind? Whether it's a legacy to the masses or self satisfaction of having lived exactly the way they wanted. We all have that internal inertia that propels us to be obsessive, compulsive and demanding. Maybe that makes ENTJ too serious and no fun but I just don't understand people who lack the drive to live life.

There's nothing worse than sitting across from a man and almost feeling sorry for him because he's such a puss. That's usually when I press "play" autopilot Date #1. I usually do 90% of the talking since the poor bastard is paying for my meal and I feel obligated to at least entertain him. Plus, I have no interest in most of what he has to say about himself. Sad, yes. Arrogant, probably but I already know it's going nowhere. He'll end up nagging and annoying me that I don't spend enough time or don't put him first. :violin: His feelings will be hurt and I'll end up loathing his very existence... Instead he laughs his butt off one evening and then we become buddies or I pawn him off to one of my girlfriends. Everyone is happy.

It's one thing for a man to date an attractive woman dumb as rocks with no ambition but it's quite difficult being a woman trying to date a man who isn't par. Am I just too back of the woods chauvinistic? I guess I just don't see a man as a man if I find them weak. What's weak?

It's not like ENTJ or INTJ are any better to date. They're usually just too busy. They need women who nag and demand their time. Needy crazy psychotic biatches who break things and throw fits. It's quite twisted.

So what's worse... Dating someone who annoys you but wants to spend every waking moment together or dating someone who doesn't have time for you?

Sigh... Gotta love being single.

I have to say it was fun ranting. I'm not as jaded as I sound. I just haven't figured it out.


#2

Hahaha - thats awesome. I love this forum (yes, I know to every parent, their child is 'special'). Its so hard to hear this in real life - but this is a place where I'm amongst my peers and they can read my mind.

Decivilization

BUT, to continue, YES - we have a nation of 'girly men' and 'man-boys'.

Lets just look at the leading men in movies this weekend:

  • Public Enemies - Johhny Depp - still not sure which team he plays for. Does seem to wear a lot of makeup and use a panoply of hair products. :gay-rainbow:
  • Transformers - Shia LaBeouf - does he even tie his own shoelaces? Petrified pre-adolescence. Megan Fox might as well be his mom.
  • Proposal - Some poor sap in the latest Sandra Bullock romantic comedy (who she will trample over initially, and eventually fall in love with, of course). Once again, this guy will be a 15 year old trapped in a 35 year old's body.
  • Hangover - Your prototypical man-boys at a bachelor party in Vegas, where coolness = irresponsibility and eventual nothingness. Reminds me of one of the funniest quotes I heard in college, again and again - "It was so much fun, I don't even remember any of it!" O...k.... splendid.
  • Bruno - Funny, because its meant to be a caricature and really isn't. :gay-rainbow:
  • Night at the museum - Ben Stiller :gay-rainbow:, in yet another role as a scared, weak, insecure... you get the picture. If you've seen one Ben Stiller movie, you've seen them all.
  • Year One - Fat man-boy hangs out with skinny girly-man.:teasing-wedgie:

10,000 years of civilization - and you have to pick between Jack Black and Shia LeBouf. I sympathize with you, Suzilla.

Dating as an ENTJ Male

However, let me assure you that an ENTJ male's choices are not much easier.

No. I couldn't last 24 hours with someone who broke things and threw fits. My struggle has been finding a girl who has high self esteem AND extraordinarily good looks AND a cheerful disposition AND is fun-loving. Somehow, the first two seem mutually exclusive. Actually, high self esteem itself seems to be almost discouraged in America.

Usually, the Hobson's choice seems to be: someone who needs to be babysat, Vs someone who wants to babysit you. I prefer the first to the second, but its not much of a choice. And neither is likely to be actually DOING anything with their lives that they care deeply about for their own sakes, rather than society's sakes, or for instant gratification. At this point in my life, I'm looking for someone I care deeply about, rather than playing the field: QED - I'm single.

I'm neither a man-boy nor a girly-man. I'm not a metrosexual, I'm a retrosexual. And I find this confuses most American women, which can be fun, but it gets old.

Solutions :happy-bouncyyellow:

Well, I don't really have any, other than become famous and have more choices by advertising what you're looking for.

I suspect SJs are probably a bad fit, and its hard to communicate with 'S's in general, past a certain point. SPs are very attractive, and NFs are spacey. NTs might be an overload, but they will understand me best.

I like the ENTJs in my life a lot (have discovered I know 4, I think). Dating an extreme ENTJ, though, might be rough, since I figure it makes sense to be with someone somewhat complementary to you - I'm intense myself, and probably need a relaxing influence rather than the opposite.

So..... WHATS THE ANSWER?


#3

I don't know about females but ENFP is a great choice for me. They usually have high self-esteem, are smart and creative and fun to be around. Some turn-offs might be the lack of focus and decisiveness, being irresponsible and messy.

Also and INFJ might be a great match for an ENTJ. We have a lot to learn from these two types and they have a lot to learn from us. I want a partner who can teach me something and improve me. The best match is when both people in the relationship benefit from each other. We'd make an ENFP more tough and responsible and they would make us less egocentric and a better person in general.


#4

Yes I completely understand you. I am 24 and female in a world of man children. I have recently decided I will end up with either an ENTJ or ENTP. They seem to be the only types capable of the dominance/intellectual stimulation I need. My cognitive functions are all out of whack, and so my Ni is ridiculously high with a strong Fe following. I completely identify with the INFJ description but I have this dominating Te on top of it all that weighs me in as a confused ENTJ. This seems to make my love life very interesting.

I absolutely refuse to be the leader in the relationship. While I am fully capable of seeing something I want and then deciding to make it mine, taking this role in a relationship is a complete turn off for me. I refuse to do it, and so many times I wait around for a man to get the courage to ask me out/pursue a relationship. I hate it! I want a man that is stronger than me. If the man isn't capable of being the pursuer/courter in the relationship, then it will never leave ground zero. It's like a complete mental/love block for me. I have had short relationships with both INTJ's and INTP's where there was a little bit of chemistry, but I feel a large part of the lack of connection for me was their lack of dominance.


#5

Hm... I think it's very interesting that you that you say that you "refuse to be the leader in the relationship". Are you just against taking the initiative or are you also against wearing the pants in a relationship?

I think it only works when a man pursues a woman. My father told me that a man should always like the woman more than she likes him. Then again, he's my father and I am his only child. :smiley:

I've got a few years on you and let me just say that, NO MAN is worth waiting around for and getting flustered over. There's nothing wrong with showing that you're interested. Just move on when you don't get a response. At least you had the balls that he doesn't. Men aren't the sharpest tools in the shed. After getting rejected day in and day out, they get confused by all the mixed signals girls send out and you lose nothing to show interest. Plus, a confident woman is sexy and men do like to be eaten alive. Ask the guys above. =P

I think what is more difficult is when you feel that you are the man in the relationship. When I was younger (eons ago) I was like the traditional stoic Asian man. I had no respect for men I felt were weaker, dependent and/or emotional. It sucks because you only attract the feeler types who want to save you from yourself.

I realize now is that my father is right and I am the boss but I'm not a man nor do I ever want to be. I finally realize that I am woman but there are no real men around as ComplexMango has show above.

(I like how you use all the nifty tools you've so generously provided for us ComplexMango. :clap:)

I think we should start an entire new topic on this subject. How many times have I used "I" in this post alone? I'm such an egotistical bastard. I take pride in all my experiences, my work ethnic, my thoughts and a lot of stupid crap that one should never admit to but at least I have pride and confidence myself and my convictions.

The world would be a better place if everyone believed in themselves and took responsibility for their own actions. To start there would be virtually no crime. People steal, kill and cheat because they have no confidence in themselves to actually make it on their own. When you take pride and responsibilty for your actions, you produce better products and constantly improve and innovate. You step up to challenges and you move forward.

I love Ayn Rand and her description of "second hander" and the "selfless". She goes at length to state the detriments of living through and for others instead of for yourself. I feel like we are at the cusp culturally of becoming a blob of the collaborate. It's really scary.

Maybe writing instead of reading when I cannot sleep is a bad idea. I apologize for rambling.

You guys attract people like that too? People who think that you're too extreme or intense and want to make you more like them? I find them so annoying!


#6

That is so true Suzilla! That is exactly what I've felt / experienced... and I'm not even an "intense" rational!!

I have a pretty strong T, but I cannot imagine dating anyone that is not a stronger NT compared to myself!


#7

I refuse to take the initiative, be the leader, or wear the pants. It's just not how I picture my fairy tale. Unlike some other ENTJ females I know, I am not attracted to men unless they are capable of providing that role. Yes, it more or less ties back to not wanting to feel like the "man" or dominant one in the relationship.

I don't pursue/wait on men. In the very very rare occasion that I find someone I am actually interested in, it can be hard to wait with my hands under my bottom. With that said, my mind is always 3 steps ahead of most men in the courting process and naturally have a vision of how I think things should unfold. I'm not looking to control the process, but it is frustrating when men look to shortcut it or do a poor job at it. I have come to the conclusion that only an ENTJ can equally plan the way I envision it in my mind. I helped one propose to his girlfriend and everything about it was perfect and well planned, unlike most men who do something corny. Some men just don't stand a chance with their pathetic attempts. Ever feel like if you were a man you could have women hanging off you? It's that frustration of I could do this so much better if I was the pursuer. Your comment about showing interest made me laugh a bit. I don't know if this is an ENTJ trait, but I am notorious for not showing any true interest until a man makes the first move. I think it is a subconcious test for weeding out the weak and those who lack courage. When I was referring to friends/male lurkers in my life, they are men that are waiting around for that moment when I reveal hope for them. It will never happen, because they lack the confidence among many other things. Wow this post makes me sound very high maintenance and conceited, but maybe you will understand what I'm getting at. I am curious about other female ENTJs' dating experience. I tend to go on lots of first, second, third dates but I rarely if ever find men that I want an actual relationship with.


#8

I love it! I gave up on fairy tales a long time ago. I've dated a lot of men. No, I've gone on a lot of first dates. Most don't even get through the first without being written off and I'm being generous. The ones that get a second are either interesting and I'm curious or there's a sliver of hope that there could be something different about this one.

I think I had the same fantasy as you did. I spent every waking moment of my time trying to rule my world and the last thing I wanted to do was rule a man. I had this fantasy that this stronger man would come save me from making decisions, planning and being the leader for a few moments. Maybe it was a fantasy of relinquishing my responsibilities and being led by someone else.

A great friend of mine once explained to me that women always sold themselves short by being so passive. He said that we didn't realize how much power and control we had over men. It was ultimately women who chose their mate and more importantly when to mate. He made me realize that I should take more of an offensive attitude towards dating.

Everyone here gets it. We're at least three steps ahead if not writing the damn book. It usually makes it more difficult for people like us to date and be involved with others. We have high standards and expectations on ourselves and it's very intimidating for others.

I think you misunderstood what I meant as far as showing interest. Interest is not pursuing a man. Interest is showing someone that they have your attention. "Yes, you have my attention. What else do you have to offer?" We are women and I'm sorry to tell you this but we have expiration dates. There will come a time when we're not as attractive and when we cannot bare children. Men usually get more attractive with age.

I am in my prime and there will never be a time where I am more physically attractive than I am now. Why should I date you? Why should I give up being taken out and treated well by a whole lot of men? What makes you better? I don't mean this in some gold digging or opportunistic way but it's the OPPORTUNITY COST of my prime time. Which is priceless!

I don't understand why women get so obsessed with getting married or being in a relationship. We have so much more to lose by being in them than being single. I can go out to fancy dinners, shows, wine tasting and fun fun events every night of the week with a different man. Why should I give that up?

Yes, dating gets old very fast. Yes, a good partner is worth much more. Yes, I know you know all this. What's wrong with letting a man know he's got 30 seconds to prove himself to give up your single and fabulous lifestyle? I ask men whom I have interest in to do activities all the time. 1. I get to do what I want 2. I get to do it with someone I actually enjoy the company of. It's a win win situation.

I guess I've come to choose my battles. I'd rather be with a strong man and make decision on where to eat or go on vacation than be with a weak man who tells me what he wants to do. You've got to remember than a strong man probably gets sick of being the leader and making all the calls. Even though he's a man and should. =) Deep down inside I am the same as you but I've just given up on that kind of man being out there and adapted. I guess it comes with age and being jaded.


#9

LADIES, I have the answer to all your problems. :banana-dreads:

Don't get too excited - there's only one of me to go around. I meant that I have an idea for you:

The Problem: Seems to be that you are more of an 'alpha' than the beta males you commonly see around you. So you need to be with someone more alpha than yourself. How would this happen?

Who makes the decisions?
I've had this post at the back of my mind for some time, so it was interesting when one of my colleagues, who is an ENTJ, said to me yesterday, in a completely different context: "You know, I spend every minute at work making difficult decisions from limited information, for a large group of people, concerning millions of dollars. When I go home, the last thing I want to do is pick between Subway and Quiznos. Thats the least my wife should be able to handle."

That's exactly how I feel! My most successful relationship was one in which the girl (SP) took the initiative for kick-starting the 'fun' part of the relationship. That doesn't mean I just sat back for the ride - quite the contrary, since its not even possible for me to do that. It just meant that I didn't have to make 100% of the decisions 100% of the time. I trusted her ability to 'make things fun' and it was a win-win since that was, in my mind, her 'core competence', for lack of a better phrase. For example, when planning a road trip, she assumed responsibility for drinks/ snacks/ beach stuff etc. and I picked the date/ time and drove. She was also great with kids/ pets etc. and more 'nurturing' than me, so if things had progressed, I could visualize how we were a good match of aptitudes. At the same time, with anyone whom I eventually choose to end up with, I will have zero expectations from them on the financial or security front, and will not mind (in fact, I expect it) if they pass those responsibilities to me.

How should an ENTJ woman approach dating?

How does this apply to ENTJ women? Hows this: what if an ENTJ woman uses her 'ENTJness' to pursue 'femininity'? And I don't mean to be sexist in the least - I do believe men and women are different. I understand that a woman, especially an ENTJ woman may find a metrosexual man unattractive; similarly, a man (especially an ENTJ, or any alpha male, the type you're aiming for) is going to be strongly drawn to a more-than-averagely-feminine woman. But this could work to an ENTJ woman's advantage: if an ENTJ female focused her attention as described here, she's bound to exceed most expectations, in exactly the same way as an ENTJ male is likely to in his career and ambitions.

Femininity is a tough definition for personality: I DO NOT mean weak or submissive. In fact, as explained earlier, low self-esteem is a turnoff, and unfortunately, only too common. I think how a feminine personality is defined is probably up to the individual - but here's an example, to get the ball rolling:

Excellence in -

  • Personal Grooming (Lets face it, women are judged on their appearance more than men. Its reality, it will never change).
  • Fitness (See above).
  • Intelligence, especially social intelligence (How to read people/ your partner/ your kids etc.)
  • Ability to raise a family (i.e. How good are you with kids? In the kitchen? )
  • Social skills (Planning parties/ events / vacations etc.)
  • Ability to run the house (Excellence in the home, basic budgeting etc.)
  • A skill that can be feminized (art/ music/ teaching/ nursing/ literature etc.)

Reflections:

To pre-empt the most obvious objection to this: :open_mouth: I don't agree with the argument of a double standard for men and women - there will always be a double standard, because men and women are fundamentally different. For example, I do think that financial insecurity is inexcusable in an ideal man, but can be easily overlooked in the woman the 'ideal man' chooses. I personally simply don't pay attention to a woman's financial situation (unless its dire, I suppose), but I pay close attention to her health and personal grooming.

I will say that a challenge any NT woman will face in the dating game is that she will have to work on her S - a fate than an NT male can often escape.

So hows this for a solution? Suzilla and Liz - does this solve your problem of who wears the pants?


#10

Well I might be the only one on this site who isn't into writing full essays, so forgive me but I don't have the time. This was an adorable post. I did appreciate the insight. I am guessing you know few to none ENTJ females in the real world?? It is cute that you have typed us as these masculine tom boys who aren't in touch with their feminine side. I think if you knew more of us you would find that to be quite the contrary. I have a hard time myself categorizing us, because I know 3 others who are each entirely different from each other. I did the whole drill team/cheerleader/ choir bit in high school, and pranced around in my little skirt, leotard, and pom poms. I even enjoyed it! :astonished: I am a serious girly girly at heart, and see your list as ridiculously simple. ENTJ's are overachievers! We like to achieve it all! But with that said, I would never stop being true to myself. Luckily, I attract the men that I am interested in with no problem.


#11

Yes, I understand where you are coming from. I am also a hopeless romantic and believer in God, so I have faith that God has a match for me.


#12

Imagine a hot ENTJ female. OMG that's the devil.


#13

Hehehe - ok, point taken. I do know only two ENTJ females, and they are both beautiful and very feminine. And they'll probably read your note and kick my ass. :wink:

But I think I didn't explain myself clearly enough the last time. So lets try version 2.0: as an ENTJ-alpha male-superman I'm used to taking responsibility and running the show most of my waking hours. AND SO... I've found I'm particularly susceptible to women who, for lack of a better word, spoil me, maybe because it feels like such a novel experience. And it seems to typically takes a girl with a developed 'F' to have that effect on me. An innate drive for independence has made me resist being spoiled by family/ circumstances/ peers/ employees etc. but its different when its a significant other!?!?!

I wouldn't be surprised if other ENTJ guys feel the same way. But what if ENTJ women feel the same way too? My point was that it might put them at a little bit of a disadvantage in the dating game, if their objective was to find someone who could out-alpha them.

PS. I don't mean to typecast ENTJ guys as a sexist, backward group; on the contrary I would think ENTJs of both sexes are very giving to their mates.

P.P.S. I think the reason for the long posts (for me at least) is that I feel compelled to offer a clear/ consistent/ meaningful/ comprehensive response each time. Kind of like composing for eternity. It does limit the frequency of my posting though - takes me days to reply to stuff. I have to eventually realize that generations from now will probably NOT reading these posts.


#14

I'm not trying to find someone to out-alpha me per say. I am trying to find someone who can handle and understand me in a way that I view him as a leader. The ENTJ with ENTJ does appear to be a head to head battle based on descriptions, but perhaps my incongruent cognitive functions causes a difference. All I know is that there is an undeniable fit. Like I said, at some point I have to stop rationalizing the matter and go with what feels right. My personal history with men shows that I pair best with rationals, particularly ENTJ and maybe ENTP.


#15

My husband is ENFP! :smiley:
I've been with him since I was 19, and my (several) boyfriends before him were either totally weak or complete assholes... Husband is the only nice guy that doesn't bore me to death :dance:
So, where do you find them? I met my man in politics - so that is my hottest tip :slight_smile:
And, yeah, single is much, much better than being with someone you don't respect.


#16

I know what you mean about ENFPs, I have an ENFP friend who is just so absolutely great to be around. He's creative, fun, witty, and just overall fascinating. He seems to have such a unique perspective that I like having in my life, but at the same time, the lack of focus and slobbiness is really annoying. I can see how an ENFP-ENTJ relationship could work, but it would require such a substantial amount of effort and balance to work through that kind of frustration in a long term setting.


#17

Have you ever dated an INTP? Through not a whole lot of past experience but a bit of analyzing, I have recently started to think that an INTP might be a really good match for an ENTJ woman with these kinds of dating problems (such as myself as well). I know the feeling of dating weak miserable men that you just cannot feel a lot of admiration (and by extension, attraction) to. I've always thought that I wanted an aggressive, extroverted, in control male and that it is what I needed to feel a strong attraction to a man and to feel feminine, but I think that may not be the best way to look at it.

Recently I've realized that being with EJ men leaves me even more competitive and masculine, and brings out a part of me I'm not very fond of. I don't think anyone is ever going to have more balls than an ENTJ, and that looking for someone who could overpower us is just a long, straight path to loneliness. I find that INTPs however, completely change the playing field. They manage to bring out this great respect and admiration in me for their pure brilliance and independence. I think for ENTJ women, with our sort of lack of intellectual depth, an INTP displays alpha male qualities by acquiring our respect for their brilliant mind.

Then again I haven't tried it yet.


#18

If you do pair up with an INTP, there are a few things you should be wary of:
-He will not do what you expect, a large portion of the time, unless your expectations are very specific to that person. In other words, ordinary things which you (and others) take for granted might be a struggle for him, yet he might be weirdly confident - and subsequently competent - in something that most people wouldn't know the first thing about.

A few examples to contextualize this: tidying up, doing laundry, etc. can be an incredible expenditure of mental effort. You know, that stuff that "takes 5 minutes". Yet plop us down in front of, say, a math or physics or psych or philosophical problem, and we can intuitively feel it out with a precision unmatched by any other type. Get us genuinely interested in something, and we will know more about it in a month than most people who work in that field their entire lives. Yet we still might fail a multiple-choice test on it, because we'll forget half the names of things, only caring about how they work and what will happen.

-If you're looking for romance, for someone to sweep you off your feet every day of the week, look elsewhere. An INTP can do it if he tries - there's a wealth of information on how to be romantic on the internet - but he will get distracted (or, as I like to call it, reorder his priorities) after a while. That doesn't mean he's lost interest in you, it just means he's found the opportunity to learn about something else. I'm sure you can sympathize.

-Perhaps most importantly for an ENTJ, you cannot control us by the usual means, whatever leadership techniques you usually use. Guilt, loyalty, debt, affection; all of these things do work to some extent but they are 'expensive'. An INTP is remarkably easy to control simply by getting them to agree with your goals. You're ENTJ, so it's not unlikely that your goals coincide with or even complement an INTP's. But beware - if they don't agree, it's usually for a very good reason, and you should probably listen.

Disclaimer: these tips are loosely put together from running my own self-analysis and relationships through the MBTI fliter. The only ENTJ I know IRL is male and I'm not gay. I've tried to take into account as much information from other INTPs at INTPcentral as possible, as well.

Best of luck!


#19

do you live in U.K. and are old are you? plz pm me :sunglasses:


#20

Wow, I have to show this to my friends! I am not the only woman out there that has more "balls" than most of the men i know!!!!!BWWWWAAAAAAHHHHAAAA!!!! i am not a mutant alien! Your words have come out of my mouth so often, and everyone tells me i am too picky, or some such rubbish! I know this doesn't really add to the topic, but you have summed things up so well i just had to comment and say thank you for letting me know i am not the only female out there whom feels this way! :dance: