Growing ENTJ/INTJ/ENFJ Populations


#1

These are the only MB types that I think can live in a world together and not ruin it. ENTJ's run the show by providing vision, structure, and direction. INTJ's get our (and their own) visions made into reality. ENFJ's provide unequaled support and ego coddling as well as helping INTJ's get things done.

In disguise of INTJ or ENFJ we must enter the world and get our genes spread out.

I believe I am a good person with good intentions, but I understand that my methods are impersonal. I am sorry if your type is not on the list.

Thoughts anyone?

-Raytheon


#2

???

Even if this topic wasn't retarded, personality is not genetically inherited. So double fail.


#3

I can only assume that you think you are smart, which gives you good reason for wanting to post. The only problem is that you are not smart. I am sorry for your inability to see this. Personality is, in fact, genetically linked. Any part of you that exists (period) is genetically linked. For instance, things like dreaming (literally the action while you are asleep) and taste (as in the way you taste food in your mouth through your taste buds) are genetically inherited. The reason that these 16 MB types exist is because they are genetically inherited. Once you have your genes, you will think a certain way, store information in your brain a certain way, express yourself a certain way, and find certain things more satisfying than others. Personality is hardwired into your brain and body, there is nothing you can do about it. You can do your best to improve your weaknesses, but they will always be there, consistently needing attention.

Do some research before you speak Ace, or should I say Ass.
You are wrong. You should be kept away from others so you cannot infect them with doubt of what is true and real.

Good luck in your future posts.

-Raytheon

-The other option of why you may have posted this is to find out what an ENTJ response would be to such an attack, but I don't believe this to be the case. You do not seem to use the scientific method on your mission in life. Please do so, you will be better off.


#4

Guys,

There is no censorship policy on this forum (except for extreme situations like posting credit card numbers, kiddie porn etc.).

That being said, IronMickie, I don't think you'd be very effective at any endeavors by alienating your opposition when you could co-opt them instead.

I know you got started on an explanation, but it still leaves more questions open than not. For example:

  • Sleep patterns and taste are clearly physiological, and can be more clearly linked to genes. Temperament is mental - how would you explain SJ parents having an NT child, for example? Even if its a dominant/ recessive issue, how do the characters combine when they are inherited?
  • Moreover, why do you think other types ruin the world? Or why is a disguise as an INTJ/ENFJ necessary? The whole concept seems a little odd.
  • Your description of inherited traits sounds a little fatalistic - do you believe in free will?
  • Do you think people can change types/ improve?
  • How would you contrast an immature ENTJ to a mature ISTP, for example?

I'm also trying to confirm you've thought this through, and you're not just trolling. Inheritance of temperaments is very interesting and important to understand if it exists, but I haven't come across any clear explanations - would like to see if you've got any insights on it.


#5

Iron Mickie, the thing that caused my comment is the fact that you think that the 13 other personality types are "ruining" the world. The whole topic is hilarious. How the hell did Einstein(INTP) ruin the world??

Also as far as I know there's no evidence that personality is genetically inherited. If there is, please find it. My parents are ISFJ and ESTJ; no one in my whole family(including grandparents, aunts, uncles...) is N. They're all SJs and SPs. And I wasn't adopted. Where did I get the ENTJ gene from??

How old are you?


#6

I will admit that I did deal with this harshly. I apologize if feelings were hurt. This is an area where I am trying to improve. Also, I like the form you put your post in, with the bullet points. I will try to figure that out sometime, probably the "list" feature, but I don't have that much time to fiddle with this right now.

As for my statement that personality is genetic. It is. I have come across a lot of research that suggests this. I will do my best in my free time to find it and post it on here. As for a dominant/recessive situation. If you talk to a Myers Briggs "typologist" (yes, they accredited by some entity somewhere). I'm sure you all have a good grasp of genetics and perhaps just need a quick refresher :wink: (my trying to be nice side).

Skin color is created by about 8 different genes working with and against each other, but the result is steady and your skin color is for life.
This could be a way personality is created, by the collaboration of multiple genes for one shown outcome.

or

When it comes to dominant and recessive genes, it works like this:
You may express a given trait (gene), but your body may have an unexpressed trait (gene) hidden in it unactivated.
When you mate with someone, you have the opportunity to pass along either of these genes equally, regardless of what trait you actually show. So, you may pass along the trait you don't show or the trait you do.
On top of this your partner has a gene they show and a gene they do not show.
When one of your gene, of which you only get to shoot out one (50% chance of this gene being your shown trait or your unseen trait), mixes with your partners gene, the dominant one wins out and is expressed.

Depending on your genes and theirs:
The chance that your trait is expressed is anywhere from 100%-0%. Punnet squares can get very complicated, very quickly.

I think that it comes down to an X gene and a Y gene for the traits of F (Feeling) or T (Thinking).

Women are XX, of which only one X is expressed in any given cell. There is no consistency in which X is expressed, the fathers or the mothers; each cell just picks on its own (unknown reasons as of now). This is called "Silent X." If a woman were to express both X genes, they would die almost immediately due to the complications. Males are XY, in which both the X and Y are used together, with some dominant traits on one gene outweighing genes on the other. Such as testosterone production as apposed to estrogen production. To all of the men out there, you may find this saddening (haha), but the Y gene has about 1-5% (the last time I looked) as many traits as an X gene. The helps making more of you than the Y, which pretty much just gives you a penis, testicles, and a few other things.

Most women, about 85% are feelers, making the other 15% men.
Most men, about 85% are thinkers, making the other 15% women.

This is consistent with T being the dominant trait when X and Y are found together.
As for I/E, N/S, P/J.... I see no correlation in these traits with genes, yet. However, I do know a male F who is a homosexual (and many that aren't). This is not a good amount of information to make an assumption, but I am going to anyway. I believe that if research was done, a larger amount of F type males would be homosexuals (this may be society driven because they connect better with females of which 85% express the F trait, and thus feel that this is who they should act like in order to make their lives happy and fulfilled.

Think about this as well:

When you read the description of your type, why do you think you fit it so perfectly. They found the traits, researched people with the traits, and found similarities. Why do you think ESFP's have such strong emotional responses, emotions are chemicals being released by the body. They have more of them released than a T type, thus making them emotional and us not emotional. You can condition a body to release chemicals and thereby condition someone to be an ESFP, but it is unlikely that people are doing this so perfectly to make all ESFP's nearly identical in their thought processes, occupations, and what makes them happy (releasing chemicals).

I believe that type rules how you think, but not what you think. We are doomed for life to think things through a certain way based on our exact (EXACT as in the smallest degree of difference possible) place in the continuum between each type I/E,N/S, etc....
Our unique life experiences will affect what our decisions are, but not how we make them.

In this sense, yes, we are all on a one way stop to our ends who someone could possibly predict, based on exact place in the continuum of each type, if they had all of the questions to be answered and all of our life experiences and results from those experiences for their use. There is no way to get to that end other than by going through those experiences and living your life. If anything I hope that this logic makes sense and should give you a feeling of comfort rather than discomfort. There is no way to improve the world by just stopping what you are doing and calling it quits. We will all have unique life experiences that will take us all in different directions. I feel like I have control of myself and do things the way I think is right, but I would then wouldn't I... :wink:

Here is an example from my life to explain this, it is true for me and nobody else due to my unique life experiences (through my eyes only, even twins who experience the same exact situations view them through minutely different positions and thus have different opinions) and my unique place in the continuum between each of the letters in my type:

I had an ENFP mother who instilled in me that hurting animals and stealing are 100% unacceptable. As a child I loved animals, but when my yellow lab chewed up my brand new toy (a blow up toy of some kind), I yelled at him and slapped his butt. My mother rushed in and said it was not his fault, he is just a dog and doesn't know how you feel about your toy and that he should not do it. She explained to me that animals are not in the world to be pets and behave a certain way, if they act in a way that hurts humans it is the human's fault because they have not yet properly trained the animal (nicely) to be a pet, or they treat the animal poorly and it becomes "bad." This makes complete sense to me and has stuck with me for life. HOWEVER, she also believes that we should all be giving homeless people money whenever they ask, I believed this for a long time because of her... But, through my life experiences I found this to be a big mistake because they do not use it for self improvement, but rather for drugs and alcohol (more often than not) which digs them a deeper hole to climb out of.

*In this case, I made decisions based on reasoning rather than emotional feelings about them. If I had been trying to train animals and was just constantly mean to them, eventually I would figure out that this didn't work in creating a loving well behaved pet. I would move on to different strategies and eventually come to the conclusion that being nice and training them properly would get my desired end result, if I did not quit on the way. Because of my logic and reasoning, I would not watch a homeless person turn my five dollars into a bottle of mouthwash and get drunk on it... and then give them another five dollars because I understand that it helps them escape reality momentarily and makes them feel better. My long term thinking leads me to believe that giving this homeless person another five dollars will be detrimental to their success in finding happiness, so I don't give any bum money.... just the ones with obvious mental handicaps (they are to be treated the same way as animals; with kindness and proper help due to their extreme "problem").

If there are spelling or grammar errors in this, I don't care right now. I do not have time to proofread this, and it has taken up too much of my time already. I hope you enjoyed my thoughts, and please feel free to make arguments. I will retaliate to calling my reasoning "retarded" though.

I will put this in my profile eventually, but just to give you some insight into me:
I do have a family
I do Love and Care about the things and people that I feel deserve it
I have many friendly acquaintances, but very few close friends that I trust with the term "friend"

-Raytheon


#7

Einstein helped make the atomic bomb. Think of how the innocent Japanese casualties, or their families, felt about Einstein's great contribution.
You may argue that the atomic bomb has stopped a lot of world violence, but if my mix had been in place there would have been no need for the bomb in the first place. Also, look at tension with North Korea and Iran right now over nukes.

The mix I have described is the best way to make a happy, safe, sustainable, and improving society.

Recessive traits most often show up every 3 generations, mathematically this is to be predicted and beyond math it is what really happens in the world. I doubt that all genes found in ENTJ are found together.... You have 23 PAIRS of chromosomes and it is highly unlikely that one gene, on one chromosome, controls your entire personality. More than likely, the genes (emphasis on the plural [size=200]"GENES"[/size]...) are spread out amongst the chromosomes. Look back farther and ask your grandparents about their parents. Also, you may not be ENTJ (bad test results).

I am 28 years old going on 65, I have mentally matured faster than my peers my whole life. But, (lol) I physically matured a little later than others, not getting my first five o'clock shadow until I was 26. My grandpa is 96 and his oldest sibling is 105. All of his brothers (all of his siblings are male) in between he (the youngest) and Mr.105 (the eldest) are still alive. Most of my male relatives are ENTJ, and I believe my ancestors (with minute details available) as far back as great great grandfathers on both my mother's and father's sides were ENTJ. You probably know some of our names and would recognize our faces. The force is strong with us... No more personal questions, they are unnecessary and insignificant to my credibility. I am becoming too obsessed with this forum and will not post for at least 3 days. :slight_smile: See you on Thursday!

-Raytheon


#8

I'm the David Koresh of your perfect world.


#9

To not see value in all types seem shocking ineffectual.

Then again, "effective" is the watchword of the INTJ. What is the watchword of the ENTJ? Whatever is "dominatible?" :stuck_out_tongue:


#10

Einstein actually highly disliked the atomic bomb. It was a great contribution to physics due to the theory of relativity. The atomic bomb was just a bi-product.

Good job.
You've established that if everyone thought the same, we would all be in harmony.
Man, I wish I had thought of that!

Too bad that world can't and won't exist, as far as everyone thinking the same like that.
Get back to the drawing board.


#11

1) Kudos to everyone for responding!

2) I'm pretty sure that you are all taking "Growing ENTJ/INTJ/ENFJ Populations" to mean farming these types or cloning them on an island somewhere... I was thinking a strategy more like Catholics use.
Pope JP II, "Catholics, have more kids."

I meant the title as "Increasing the numbers of ENTJ, INTJ, ENFJ Populations"

Think more Marlon Brando in real life ~ 20+ kids
rather than
Marlon Brando in The Island of Dr. Moreau ~ Genetic Engineer of an island filled with animal people.

This concept was demonstrated when I said that we need to get out in the world in disguises and hook up with the other types I suggested.

3) My research through multiple forums is consistent with my statement that all other types envy us. Anywhere, on any forum around "ENTJ," you will find that most people express inferiority to us. Most often someone of the main type on the forum admits that we (ENTJ) are the best and would like to be like us, then the rest of that type rally behind statements of why their type is great and necessary. Go around and look for yourself. Most forums have a search feature. Search ENTJ and you will see the same results that I did.

4) Assuming that you are calling me a fascist for wanting to farm these types is reasonable, but that is not what I want. I just want ENTJs to have a lot of kids with mates that are ENTJ, INTJ, and ENFJ. Nothing wrong with a little active manipulating of the gene pool. Like I said earlier, most religions push this concept to "grow" their numbers (religion isn't genetic, but most of the time religious beliefs are passed down from generation to generation and retained well). Russia, the country, is encouraging it's citizens to have more kids as well. If you still think that I am a fascist for wanting this, then tell Pope John Paul II that he is too. Beyond that, I believe in expressing dissent, individuality, and government based on socialist capitalism (somewhere in the continuum between Socialism and Capitalism, more towards the middle than the U.S. already is e.g. Social Security, EPA, CHIP, Medicare, etc.).

5) The benefits of having just the types that I have described outweigh the benefits of having all types that currently exist. I see the strengths and weaknesses of all types and have found that the benefits of having a world of ENTJ, INTJ, and ENFJ are better than the benefits of having world consisting of all the types that currently exist. I argued against someone that said they wanted a world of just INTJ and ENTJ, using the argument that we work better with more resources (types) to pull from. However, still agreeing with the point that having a large pool of types yields good results, I decided a pool filled with ENTJ and INTJ would be more effective than a pool filled with all types. Thus, coming to the conclusion that the mix I described is probably the best way to sustain the human race.

6) There are very of us. I wasn't referring to the number of ENTJ's on this forum, but rather the number of us in the world. Of the people that have taken personality tests at school, work, etc. (a pretty random bunch I would believe) ENTJ comprises only 1.8% of the population. This is the smallest percentage of any personality type.

I see this idea of increasing our numbers as EXTREMELY realistic. Personality is genetic, we can pass on our genes, we can make more of us.
Increase ENTJ, INTJ, ENFJ populations, Increase chances for world peace.
The more positive, rational, logical, and improvement desiring personalities we have, the better off we are.

THE END.


#12
  1. Personality is not genetically inherited, environment plays a big part
    If your theory was correct, twins would not only look identical but behave identically. They would have the same personalities, which they don't. So you can't breed people to have specific personalities.
  2. ENTJs need sensers, who would we lead?
  3. There is nothing wrong with INTPs, ENFPs and all the other personality types. Some of the greatest people that ever lived were INTPs(Einsten), ENTP(Walt Disney), ENFP(Charles Dickens), INFJ (Nelson Mandela), INFP (J. R. R. Tolkien, Peter Jackson), ISFP (Pablo Picasso), there are also many sensers who are famous actors, dancers, painters... I don't know if all these famous people's types are true(I took them from a personality website) but I am 100% sure that many of these people were not ENTJs, INTJs nor ENFJs.
  4. Thinking that everyone envies you and that everyone else is inferior are Narcissistic personality disorder symptoms.

You are an embarrassment to ENTJs. Change your way of thinking and come back down to Earth.


#13

Not only do I live in the real world, I have evidence to back up what I say. Personality is Nature vs. Nurture (as is EVERY SINGLE BEHAVIORAL TRAIT IN LIVING ORGANISMS), but one of these two concepts has more influence than the other (NATURE HAS MORE INFLUENCE). You will be an ENTJ for life, there is nothing you can do about it. You can mask your ENTJ features, but they will always be there, expressing themselves at the forefront of any thought. 100%. Here is some evidence (including situations involving twins):

1)http://news.softpedia.com/news/Our-Personality-Is-It-Genetically-Inherited-or-Determined-by-The-Environmental-Factors-28413.shtml
2)http://www.nytimes.com/1986/12/02/science/major-personality-study-finds-that-traits-are-mostly-inherited.html?sec=health
3)http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=jvvtACJBt8UC&oi=fnd&pg=PA251&dq=personality+genetically+inherited&ots=rvdj-G77pA&sig=UGJJ7mCnT1vF-uFKKkee2_dGp1g
4)http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/pdf_extract/264/5166/1700

Let this be the end of the argument against personality being genetically inherited before I have to put together a research project 100 articles deep to prove it. This is what I found in 5 minutes with free resources. Do some research against my point, present it, and I will accept your position as "informed."

INTJ and ENFJ. They would accept our leadership. We are good leaders and can mobilize anyone.

I am not saying that other types don't exhibit good traits, they do. But, my mix is the best one possible. The benefits of my mix outweigh the benefits of all types together or any other mix. Explain to me why they wouldn't be. Beyond that, Walt Disney was a Nazi sympathizer, so probably not a good example. I am not going to pick apart your examples beyond Walt Disney. Explain why my point is incorrect with reasons why a different mix has benefits that outweigh the benefits of my mix.

Like I said earlier, my research is consistent. Other types express inferiority to us. Example:

FROM INTJFORUM.COM (the most able other type)

TITLE OF TOPIC IS "INTJ and ENTJ Advantages and Disadvantages"

By "Santana28" on October of 2007. This "Santana28" has 1,300 posts in the forum.

"thats a good question. seems to me from my experience that the only person who can beat me at my own game is an ENTJ... i really wouldn't begin to know what we have an "Advantage" over them with, except perhaps in the realm of self-understanding and self-awareness. Seems like ENTJs spend less time focusing their thoughts inward on themselves, and they look for more external clues as to who they are. I think we are much more able to tell you exactly how we feel and why we feel it, whereas the more extroverted types spend more time doing things and looking at the results, than contemplating their thought processes."

All I did was type in ENTJ into INTJFORUM.COM's search feature and this was the first thing that popped up. Go to other forums and you will see the same results. Actually, Ace, you should have seen this, as your were on there asking for direction to an ENTJ forum. Just a coincidence that I found this fact; I assure you that I have no care of anything about you beyond this forum. The world of forums based on MB type is a small one.

Now that you have valid information to understand my side of the argument, present yours.... or change your opinion.


#14
  • I've read all those links and they don't prove your theory. As I said nature is not the only thing that shapes our personality, nurture plays a big part. Most scientists agree that it's nature+nurture, not nature vs. nurture.
  • INTJs and ENFJs do not like to be led. Especially the INTJs. I know, I'm a member of their forum and have a couple of hundred posts there. They highly value independence.
  • How the hell do you know that your mix is the best one possible?? Do you have a "life and everything simulator" at home so you can test the possible outcome of the future with those 3 types?
  • As I said, I read the INTJforum regularly and I can say that they don't feel inferior to us. Some of them do, but they're probably depressed and socially inept or even underdeveloped ENTJs masquerading as introverts. Most of them don't feel inferior to us, and they have expressed some of our bad traits which has been a great help in improving myself. We do have advantages over them, but they have advantages over us.

You see admiration as expressing inferiority which is also a narcissistic trait. Ofcourse some people are going to admire us but you know what? Some people admire the ENFPs, some people admire the INTPs and so on...

This whole topic is ridiculous and I'm afraid what other smart people might think of us when they read this. You are feeding the "ENTJ egotistical Nazi" stereotype.


#15

Nature shapes what we can and can't do. Can you fly using only your own body? You are hardwired to think by a certain process. You can do your best to get around it, but it will always be there. The research is consistent with nature shaping our personalities, that we can improve upon slightly. Let me know the day when you stop being an ENTJ.

INTJ's would be moving and progressing in a thousand different directions without a common goal, we can help them work together for a common goal (that they agree with). Leadership doesn't mean forcing people to do things they don't want to do. Leadership means guiding people to a beneficial outcome that they agree with.

These personality types are mainly altruistic or at least extremely able to achieve goals that are necessary for real world safety and peace.

Would you like to be like someone you admire? Micheal Jordan, Bill Gates, President Obama, Ghandi? Admiration and Envy are very closely related, one is just more negative than the other.

Reasoning of why I think others want to be like us is not just narcissistic if it's true (which it is, once again look in other forums).

Why are you afraid of what others will think of us, and you by extension? Do you not consider yourself smart?

I am not egotistical, and especially not a fascist or a Nazi. I am rational, and these are the patterns I see.


#16

lol

The ENTJs and ENFJ would all be trying to control and lead each other, and would proably just end up fighting one another. Behind the scenes the INTJs would be scheming and plotting...

The amusing thing is the inherent lack of followers (SJ temperament) and intiators of true change and perfectionism (artisans {ISFPs}and SPs in general). I particularily refer to ISFPs, because of their extrodinarily high refinement of Fi, which pretty much none of the types you mentioned have in abundant quantitiy...

that's a real worry, because such a condition in a society results in a lack of true introspection, and indicates a lack awareness of the importance of the role of PERCEPTION (as such which is accentuated in artwork).


#17

Alright, alright. I will admit that this probably wouldn't work, completely. But, I do think that the world would be a better place if there were more ENTJ, ENFJ, INTJ types. So, the bottom line is still the same, "Go forth and make more of us."


#18

He invented the A-bomb... I personally think the world would have been nicer without nuclear weapons :laughing:
I do think that all the types contribute to the world - in good or bad ways. But I prefer to be around N-types :slight_smile:


#19

Isn't J. Robert Oppenheimer the father of the A-bomb?

Here are some of Einstein's contributions to the world:

* The special theory of relativity, which reconciled mechanics with electromagnetism
* The general theory of relativity, a new theory of gravitation obeying the equivalence principle.
* Founding of relativistic cosmology with a cosmological constant
* The first post-Newtonian expansion, explaining the perihelion advance of Mercury
* Prediction of the deflection of light by gravity and gravitational lensing
* The first fluctuation dissipation theorem which explained the Brownian movement of molecules
* The theory of density fluctuations in gasses and liquids, giving a criterion for critical opalescence
* The photon theory and wave-particle duality derived from the thermodynamic properties of light
* The quantum theory of atomic motion in solids
* Zero-point energy
* The semiclassical version of the Schrödinger equation
* Relations for atomic transition probabilities which predicted stimulated emission
* The quantum theory of a monatomic gas which predicted Bose-Einstein condensation
* The EPR paradox
* A program for a unified field theory
* The geometrization of fundamental physics.

#20

Ace, you're right about that I think; in fact Wikipedia doesn't even mention Einstein in the article History of nuclear weapons :nerd:
I'm glad you cleared his name - I've always considered Einstein responsible for nuclear weapons, which is obviously really unfair :naughty:
And that is a good example of one ENTJ-issue; jumping to conclusions and being hard on others. Good thing we're not alone :mrgreen: