Growing ENTJ/INTJ/ENFJ Populations

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Re: Growing ENTJ/INTJ/ENFJ Populations

Postby Iron Mickie » Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:38 pm

Personality is both hereditary and learned/developed through social interaction. I would like to put more emphasis on the hereditary side, as is accepted by the evidence provided in previous posts. Do you have any evidence to back up any of what you state to be true? (I'm not trying to be combative here, just trying to sort out the opinion from science).

The main idea behind this post is: The more smart, reasonable, and altruistic people the Earth has (rationals mostly), the better off it is.

Regarding your personal genetic situation, I believe a lot of ENTJs are actually ESTPs. Read some ESTP descriptions and see what you think (I wouldn't mind hearing what you think either)...
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Re: Growing ENTJ/INTJ/ENFJ Populations

Postby RomanticRealist » Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:52 pm

Do YOU have the evidence?

I know for a fact that in the nature AND nurture debate, it is accepted that our genetics gives us the flexibility to be all types, however it is the environment that leads us to favour one over the other. Only certain traits of personality such as shyness is inherited genetically, and even then, it can be overcomed by working on it. Note that I said certain traits, and not a temperament or personality at large. The only difference is that, it would be easier to some than others to overcome these traits depending on which sensative periods in your life that you are exposed to certain environmental stimuli that makes you the way you are.

On the ESTP comment, you may be right about some people. There are definitely some similarities. However I do see some discrepancies too. For example, I excelled in school and always liked new and interesting theories. Even though I do love fast pace, unpredictability and an ever changing experience, the way I approach things are mostly methodical and planned.
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Re: Growing ENTJ/INTJ/ENFJ Populations

Postby Iron Mickie » Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:48 pm

I do have evidence, which was posted earlier in this topic. The genetics side of the debate is overwhelmingly favored; nature always wins. You are and always will be the same type. Anyone can become funny or mean or cynical or social or antisocial... but deep down, your type is what you naturally prefer.
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Re: Growing ENTJ/INTJ/ENFJ Populations

Postby llBradll » Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:51 pm

I really found this thread fascinating regardless of how much dispute their was.

I think by now we can say all types have their goods and bads, and we know that Iron Mickie sees both sides and would just like to see more of certain qualities in this world.

I believe in both sides of the nature/nurture argument. I think trying to change society by spreading our genes more would be a very large waste of time though. I think nurture plays a bigger part, but I still believe genes shouldn't be forgotten.

Personally, I think that N is what needs to be worked on most. I think that we need to promote seeing the big picture and planning long term. I think it would create an effect similar to what IM was looking for, and it would be far more reasonable to plan out through schooling and other factors.

thoughts?
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Re: Growing ENTJ/INTJ/ENFJ Populations

Postby Iron Mickie » Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:36 pm

I appreciate your understanding of this argument/thread. I agree that N is the big fish. Long term planning/solutions are what will keep people safe, happy, creative, and productive. Everything can be changed with education, for better or worse. Every generation is a fresh start...

I am still sticking to my guns about XNTJs and ENFJ's being the best for society, and that there should and can be more of them.

I think that the best society possible would have a majority XNTJs and a lesser majority ENFJs (that is with all of the other types included in smaller percentages). Anyway you slice it, decisions need to be made rationally without idealistic influence. What works works, and what doesn't doesn't; things change over time; don't cling to what YOU want... the greater good is what needs to be looked after.
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Re: Growing ENTJ/INTJ/ENFJ Populations

Postby mserogerb » Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:45 pm

Born or learned I don't know, but as I studied this topic I found this:
If NT's are 1.5% of the population, out of 6 children my parents had 3 NT's and at least one NF others undetermined
My offspring are ENTJ INTJ ENTP INFJ
I am an ENTJ

All my children were homeschooled, with a lot of logical discussion in school and after supper.

My wife is an .......ISFP!!!
She definitly knows what it feels like to not fit in.

But as her life has progressed she has developed the N the T and the J sides of her as well as the E
But still when she tests, she is an ISFP as her preference

Genetic or enviorment? Interesting question.

How did she produce all N children?
How come none of her offspring were S's at all if it is all genetic?

Research needs to be done.

My own observation of this subject is that most of the information is by observation and is very subjective.

Roger b.
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Re: Growing ENTJ/INTJ/ENFJ Populations

Postby Iron Mickie » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:40 pm

Yes, most of what i'm saying is subjective. Research does suggest that personality is at least partially genetically based. I believe that it has more to do with genetics than anything else... and I am rarely wrong.

The research is out there, let me know what you find.
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Re: Growing ENTJ/INTJ/ENFJ Populations

Postby lamer » Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:20 am


1. Personally don’t think that any type is superior/ inferior than the others.[/b]
Let’s discuss about the reason why you, IronMickie want to grow the population of ENTJ, INTJ, ENFJ? Is it because you think that these types have something that are better/superior than the others? ( as per your point of view). If you think so, then i think maybe you are in the wrong way.
Each type plays a role in society. Each of them has the good and bad things, and has good/ bad effect (in some ways) to society.
The purpose of the research on personality types is for regconising the strengths as well as the weaknesses of each personality type, then explain the drive that makes the behaviour of each type-->to improve onself, to adjust onself/ others to gain the overal aim --> make the relationship work. ( We are driven to the perfectionism, aren’t we?)
( For the ENFJ personality, i will discuss a little bit later in the last paragraph- in Note 1)

[b]2. Personality is inherited (nature) and affected by the nurture.[/b]
[b]- NARURE ( in born) :

I agree with you, IronMickie, that personality type is inherited ( via gene).
If we remember about inherit theories ( include Menden’s), we can notice that not all the traits are expressed in the 1st or 2nd generation, but maybe in the 3rd or 4th ones, and so on. It explains why there are black parent still ahe white children (not due to some secret affair :D or skin illness ). So the baby is obviously inherited the white complexion from his ancestors.
And as per Complex Mango said: if inheritance is just transferred via gene in physical things, so what about 6th sense- it belongs to neural thing? We all know that most woman has much stronger 6th sense than man, isn’t it from the X chromosome she inherited from the father? So the it is obviously in born. So why not personality type gene is something inherited? It makes sense, doesn’t it?
- NATURE:
To me, the nurture plays an important role in creating the strength of the personality also. It affects the strength of the function in a personality. The nurture here includes:
+ The order of the child in a family
+ The living environment: the education ( from family, from school, society..)
Why do i think so? Assume that we are analysing the ENTJ personality:
For the order of the child in a family:[u][i]
As i notice that the order of the child in a family role is either : first child, only child or the last child. ( i noticed this from my family, form my ENTJ friends)
+ First child: In family, the first child is the one that is expected most from the parent. He/she must bear the expectation from the parent, be the good image for the his/her sisters/ brothers to follow. He must take care of his sisters/ brothers and sometimes, play the role of the parent to take care of them. (This occurs much from Asian families).So it’s reasonable for him to be independent, fair and has strong personality ( of a leader).
+ Only child: As alike the first child
+ Last child: Mostly this child is not taken care of or expected much from the parent. So by nature, he must approve himself to the others this leads to the independent personality which most ENTJ or other Thinking types have.
(notes: for the order of the child in family, i’d love it if you guys can confirm the order of yours and your ENTJ friends in family if possible)

[u][i]For the effect of the living environment:

Why does the environment affects the strength of the personality’s functions?
( I wish i have enough time and space for explaining more about the diagram as well as how the environment affects the functions. The posting here is so long, hope that you guys wont feel asleep if reading:D)

We can summarise the development of the ENTJ functions through a simple diagram as below:
Case 1: With ENTJ gene:
+ With AE:---> strong functions
+ Without AE:---->moderate/weak functions

Case 2: Without ENTJ gene:
+ With AE:---> moderate/weak functions
+ Without AE:---> no ENTJ functions ( now become other types)

Which is:
AE (Appropriate Environment): the ENTJ child was raised up directly by the ENTJ parent, the order of the child in family, and the society supports the ENTJ functions.
Without AE: the child maybe adopted by non ENTJ parent, the order of the child, or the society doesn’t support the ENTJ functions.

As you know that we are living in a world that not all everything can be explained by science. And human is the most complex subject that makes scientists to put forth on researching for. Anything could happen- what we know maybe is not the correct one due to our limitation in knowledge.

Note 1: for ENFJ personality type:As i read in Socionics.com, the type’s behaviour is descripted as below:
“ Respect hierarchy & relate people accordingly:
- if person in lower position: cold & disrepectful
- if higher : tactful & humble”

Do you think it’s a good thing to develop? I personaly think this is not a good thing and totally dislike such a behaviour. Why? Assume you are at the higher position, do you like the person who follows and be humble in front of you and flatter you just because you are at higher position than that person, not because your real competence/ good character? What if you are at lower position? What does he/she treat you? Like shit! So do you like that personality trait and wish to growing up the population ?

Anyway, we are here in this forum to share and improve knowledge, experience, right? Why don’t we create some open topics like: “Nature/ Nuture of the personality types – what do you support?” or “ENTJ, your real experience with other types”,ect..Then people can share knowledge and we have chance to expand our knowledge?
Hope that you all have the same thought with me, and please feel free to discuss openly 
(I love the way IronMickie fight for his thought, although it might seems a little aggressive  We all have been told “being aggressive” sometimes in ENTJ life, haven’t we? :) )
Per timorem ambulate! Flammam in anima ardete! Longa et obcura nox a prima luce superabitur.
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Re: Growing ENTJ/INTJ/ENFJ Populations

Postby Iron Mickie » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:21 pm

Personality is set in stone by first grade. I embrace my ENTJ qualitites and only work on my other areas of lacking if it serves some purpose. If we all worked on the areas we naturally aren't in tune with we would all be XXXXs eventually.

What I'm saying is that it doesn't take all types to make the world run. The world is still going to keep moving if, say for example, no more ESTPs were born. The world wouldn't shut down if INFPs stopped procreating. Just because something exists now, doesn't mean it does anything benificial, it simply exists. You can find good in almost anything, but the greatest good is what I'm proposing.

Once again, I'm not proposing genocide! :) I'm just saying let's have some friendly competition and make more of us (based on probability that our offspring will be ENTJ. When the singularity comes, we'll all be rationals anyway :P
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Re: Growing ENTJ/INTJ/ENFJ Populations

Postby kenza010 » Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:38 am

It's hard to say, some people genuinely work hard at making the world a better place,
while others start out with good intentions, but become corrupted by delusions of grandeur.
I've learned those choices don't seem to apply to any particular type, but everyone.


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