Are ENTJs underappreciated?

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Are ENTJs underappreciated?

Postby ComplexMango » Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:09 am

Immediate examples that come to mind:
Margaret Thatcher
Douglas McArthur
Bill Gates

My point is that it is inaccurate to describe modern American buisiness history without mentioning the enormous contribution of Bill Gates, or modern British history without mentioning the Thatcher revolution as the prime mover, or the Eastern theater of WW II/ Post-war Japan/ the liberation of the Phillipines without mentioned Douglas McArthur as its principal architect.

However, you will rarely encounter these three described in those ways by the man on the street, or the average newsreader/ TV talking head.

I think all three of these famous ENTJs had generation-changing accomplishments, but did not actively seek any recognition or adulation for their achievements, and have been actively targeted by the media during their careers.

In other words, sometimes I wonder if the world sees ENTJs as 'a--holes who are magically right' - i.e. like an immature view of a 'dad' figure. All 3 above have literally been scorned in the UK/ US media, even during their prime, and are regarded as 'necessary evils'. Bill Gates is one of my favorite examples: "Bill Gates is an evil monopolistic dictator! We are all forced to use Microsoft because it is prohibitively expensive and inefficient to use any other firms products in a mass business setting! What a jerk for providing such comprehensive interoperability!" Or Thatcher, vilified by the media all through her incredible and unprecedented term in office.

Hypotheses

Is there something in the ENTJ approach or psyche that does not serve to 'endear'?

Are folks that 'endear' inevitably artisans (i.e. SPs)? or Fs?

Obviously I may be referring to the reaction of the sheeple, and as an ENTJ myself, I don't really seek affirmation in any way. But is that 'why they hate us' ;)? Because we don't seek their approval/ blessings/ adulation, because of which they have no power over us? Or is that the rational's (i.e. NT's) curse in general?

Or maybe is it the 'J' that causes a problem? I think it is easier for an INTP to be 'loved' than an ENTJ. e.g. Einstein. (sidenote: that would make INTPs 'weirdos who are magically right' :D)

Is it the Fi, and the Te?

Can anyone name a single famous 'beloved' ENTJ?
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Re: Are ENTJs underappreciated?

Postby DefectiveCreative » Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:34 pm

Thatcher's a terrible example to use. For one, she adored the spotlight and regularly sought recognition and adulation for her achievements, and secondly for every positive thing she did for the country (the right to buy for example) she did twice as many things that were thoroughly detrimental (e.g. the poll tax fiasco, completely failing to do anything about the mass unemployment brought about when she sold off and closed down the coal mining industry, her support of economic policies that helped lay the groundwork for our current economic crisis, etc.), so it's no wonder she was reviled (plus the British media pretty much always give whoever's in power a grand old kicking no matter how well they're doing), she was on the verge of losing the 1983 election until the Falklands war victory bumped her approval rating through the roof.

As for why ENTJs tend not to receive much love, I think it's at least partly due to the typical ENTJ interaction style. It can be pretty full-on and in your face, especially if they haven't developed their F side, and IIRC the most common enneagram types for ENTJs are 8 and 1, so average to unhealthy ENTJs are either going around challenging people left right and centre for no particular reason other than to do so, or they're painting the world in black and white with a "Me vs. You" mentality.

Not exactly recipes for endearment.
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Re: Are ENTJs underappreciated?

Postby nick » Sat Sep 19, 2009 3:51 pm

Briefly on Thatcher: I am no expert on British politics, but it seems to me that Thatcher's motivation was to increase economic freedom--the #1 factor in a healthy economy. That is quite admirable for a head of government; most instinctively seek to crush economic freedom so they can centralize power (resulting in deadweight social loss on an insane scale). She did achieve some success in this endeavor, allowing the UK economy to soar above most of Europe for many years.

I do think that ENTJs are well appreciated by NTs in general, but underappreciated (like NTs in general) by many Non-NTs (90% of the population?). The Te is the face ENTJs show to the world. This is so refreshing to other NTs who love to cut the BS and get down to reason. I think the "a-hole with mystical powers" is how some S and especially SF types tend to interpret the N-based Te.

*The "mystical" part comes from a lack of understanding of how the N operates.
*The "powers" part comes from the strong competence possessed by well developed ENTJs.
*The "a-hole" part comes from the "J" at times, but more often I suspect is due to the hostility to reason itself exhibited by many people.

Very often the ENTJ is going out into the world with the Te, telling people truth they just don't want to hear! The reaction ends up: "Wow, he was so right-but I really don't like him!" And the ENTJ is thinking, "Ugh! I am just telling you how to achieve YOUR OWN GOAL! Why can't you just get off your ass and do it right???"

As for the "endear" issue, I think that ENTJs are more admired for most types, but the "mystical" aspect can prevent that admiration from turning into affection. Other types may be stronger with emotional connection but find it harder to earn admiration (http://www.keirsey.com/handler.aspx?s=keirsey&f=fourtemps&tab=2&c=protector). Also, people are drawn to ESTPs; most of the time it is genuine, but sometimes it is just because ESTPs make the best con artists (Se, followed by Ti, followed by Fe). I doubt the ENTJs would be willing to trade with anybody for most purposes.

I do think INTPs are sometimes seen as "weirdos with mystical powers." "Mystical powers," for roughly the same reasons as ENTJs. The "wierdo" (rather than "a-hole"), comes in because INTPs are Ti, and Ne is the face they show the world. One reason people think, "wierdo" is because they see a person who is normally an introspective observer come up with an answer they could not picture the INTP having experience with. More basic might be that introspective observers in general come off as wierd. INTPs are less likely to get the a-hole tag because of:

*The informative(NTP)/directive(NTJ) distinction.
*While ENTJs are trying to mobilize the subject, INTPs get joy from simply discovering the right answer. If the other person implements the solution, that is great!!! But, if the person chooses not to, admiration for that person may decrease but the emotional reaction is usually: "meh."
*The P vs. J distinction. The INTP is trying to understand the issue, whereas the ENTJ's opinion of the other person may show through.

So the consumer thinks, "This INTP has the answer to my question--but I don't know how he does," or "This ENTJ has the answer to my question--and he will kick me in the pants if I can't even be bothered to accept the gift!"
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Re: Are ENTJs underappreciated?

Postby Iron Mickie » Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:25 am

I agree completely. Magnificent insight.
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Re: Are ENTJs underappreciated?

Postby DefectiveCreative » Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:46 am

nick wrote:Briefly on Thatcher: I am no expert on British politics, but it seems to me that Thatcher's motivation was to increase economic freedom--the #1 factor in a healthy economy. That is quite admirable for a head of government; most instinctively seek to crush economic freedom so they can centralize power (resulting in deadweight social loss on an insane scale). She did achieve some success in this endeavor, allowing the UK economy to soar above most of Europe for many years.


That's a very fair point, as much damage as she caused there were definitely things she did that were of great benefit to the nation. For example, even though it directly affected where I live very negatively in both the short and long term, Thatcher privatising the coal industry was an absolute must IMO. It had become bloated, inefficient and its union had become too powerful and self-serving (my problem with it is just that she didn't make even the slightest bit of effort to encourage new industries to move in to the void that was left when the mines closed, dooming entire generations to a vicious cycle of unemployment and dependence on the state). Also her economic policies allowed many people to lift themselves out of dependence on the state and become self-sufficient.

It's worth noting however that some of the seeds of our current economic troubles can be found in those same economic policies, and even at the time those policies were notorious for creating cycles of boom and bust, so it wasn't all good.
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Re: Are ENTJs underappreciated?

Postby LeonardoLestat » Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:06 am

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Last edited by LeonardoLestat on Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are ENTJs underappreciated?

Postby Ace_ » Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:29 am

In my experience being an ENTJ, there's always half of the people who think you're awesome and half of the people who hate your guts because you always say the obvious truth that everyone is so silent about.
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Re: Are ENTJs underappreciated?

Postby Travtex » Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:09 am

Ace_ wrote:In my experience being an ENTJ, there's always half of the people who think you're awesome and half of the people who hate your guts because you always say the obvious truth that everyone is so silent about.


This probably has an impact. I've created more than one lifelong enemy with an offhand insight that apparently I wasn't supposed to point out. (Of course, I never find out until well after the fact as the offended party is inevitably too much of a weiner to say anything to my face.)

At my hospital, they've even managed to set up a system through which my... underappreciatedness... is well-documented. The "WOW Cards". Basically, they're these cheesy little index cards that employees use to write warm fuzzlets about one another for... whatever.

I've received one in over two years. Now, one could argue, 'Maybe you're just a slack ass', and there's nobody here to verify my own word, but as far as I can tell - I'm above and beyond far more often than not. I do a good quantity of work that is not technically mine, helping out when coworkers get overwhelmed.

It went to even another level when I was hitting my shift supervisor up for a lead therapist position. His comment included my need to 'show initiative' with regard to helping out... I argued, in my opinion fairly, that there was no possible way for me to show MORE initiative in that particular area, as I never -stop- until my own and everyone else's work is done. Hell, I'll even visit departments I'm not -working- to make sure everything's taken care of.

One thing I've noted is that I don't make a big thing of it. Thing 'A' needs to be done... do it, get on with life. Others I've seen tend to make quite a show of doing someone else's assignment.

*shrug* Or, it could just as easily be that I'm falling victim to the self-serving bias and am actually a horrific lollygagger lacking in self-awareness.
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Re: Are ENTJs underappreciated?

Postby ENTJWoman » Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:12 pm

In reply to underappreciated....yes, those reviews and and wow cards, meant to apply peer pressure are not what an individualist ENTJ enjoys. No bending and twisting needed. I motivate myself and I get the job done. So often, I see people who are always marketing themselves. How good they are, their wonderful people, places and things, how they did it etc. I hate listening to them go on.
ENTJ's don't do that. Their concern is for the task..identifying it, rooting out the problem, designing a solution and handing it off to be maintained. In my mind, once something makes my list of to-do, I consider it a shovel-ready project waiting to be completed.
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Re: Are ENTJs underappreciated?

Postby Travtex » Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:02 pm

ENTJWoman wrote:In reply to underappreciated....yes, those reviews and and wow cards, meant to apply peer pressure are not what an individualist ENTJ enjoys. No bending and twisting needed. I motivate myself and I get the job done.


It's pretty ridiculous, in my view. Not remotely well-suited to its purpose, either (That's probably a bigger sin in my own value hierarchy, heh. If it -works-, I don't care as much that it's stupid). Since they give out dinky little rewards for X amount of Wow Cards, it doesn't take many IQ points to figure out that the entire system is going to rapidly degenerate to friends giving one another random Wow Cards for every little reason.

So often, I see people who are always marketing themselves. How good they are, their wonderful people, places and things, how they did it etc. I hate listening to them go on.


Right. Self-marketing is certainly a weak area... Not because I'm bad at it (To the contrary, given half a mind to do so, I can generally convince almost anyone of almost anything), but because it generally doesn't occur to me. The few times it does, it seems pointless as I like to think merit speaks for itself. (I am, I suppose, a blind idealist that way.)

ENTJ's don't do that. Their concern is for the task..identifying it, rooting out the problem, designing a solution and handing it off to be maintained. In my mind, once something makes my list of to-do, I consider it a shovel-ready project waiting to be completed.


Heh heh. I could get off on quite a rant-tangent with this bit, but I don't have the time to get sidetracked. Goal orientation, accountability... argh, the kind of things that seem painfully rare to me. (Possibly just because I'm obsessed with them.)
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